This is my personal sticky note reminder to me to come back here and leave more detailed thoughts. I really enjoyed the vid and I liked your thoughts here. I find some of the things you have here interesting and something which I rather over-looked in my initial viewings.
I'm actually really glad to have someone who is an admitted non-feminist entering into a discussion of this level. I am a feminist and pretty third wavy, but I think there are plenty of feminists who somehow seem to think being a feminist or adhering to feminist ideals means you surrender your ability to think things through. They sometimes arbitrarily think or believe certain things without necessarily examining things at a deeper level - because they just want to follow some kind of party line or something. I have friends who think it's a-ok to express violence towards men for things like cheating ("kick him in his nuts"), but horror of horrors if anyone ever expresses violence towards a woman
( ... )
They sometimes arbitrarily think or believe certain things without necessarily examining things at a deeper level - because they just want to follow some kind of party line or something.
This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to get at, yes. I'm not saying that feminism as a concept is bad or anything - quite to the contrary, but following any set of ideals without thinking them through very well is kind of scary. And it can lead to a completely new set of double standards which are kind of to the reverse of how Real Life ones go. Not better or worse, just different.
To be honest, without these notes, I think I missed a lot of the implications you had set up.
Judging from the comments so far, it looks like some other people definitely have too, so that's my bad. Or possibly just very, very telling about fandom. I was sort of expecting that most people would be at least mildly disturbed by the tonal shift, but... no. It feels sort of like how when I Want You (She's So Heavy) first came out, I was seriously squicked on a lot of levels
( ... )
I loved the zombie porn. But mostly because I think I intrinsically did get that kiki was saying what a bunch of sick fucks people can be. And it was AWESOME because I was so grossed out and it WORKED like it should've. But that was just me.
It just seems like an awfully PC sort of party line that you don't have to actively think about too much. Yes, there are definitely exceptions, but there are very large and prominent patterns too.Mmmm, yes and no. I just think it's hard to tell the difference between what are the really our natural patterns and what could just be some 5,000ish years of being told that's how we should be, really
( ... )
Judging from the comments so far, it looks like some other people definitely have too, so that's my bad. Or possibly just very, very telling about fandom.
Just saw your vid, so tuning in late, but yes - I think that's fascinating and telling.
In the past couple of months I've actually been thinking for a while about how I desperately wish someone would make a vid about strong female aggression against weaker males, objectfication of males/the sexualization of violence against men in the female gaze (in response to the recent girl power vids - not that I want something female-hating, but just telling another side)... so you hit a chord with me and I picked up the distaste for their actions in the second phase.
I'm one of those (rare?) women who has always had a short fuse and felt an attraction to violence, and I'm not instinctively nuturing at all, have no interest in babies or caretaking of others, etc. so in a way that method of girl power makes a lot of emotional sense to me personally. But then, it makes no sense to me that
( ... )
I'm sad to hear that you shy away from the term feminist, because that's what this is to me. But I certainly will respect the fact that whatever experiences you've had have made you want to reject the term. Rejecting the hierarchical value/worth placed on male attributes over female attributes (and instead making them equal) is feminism (to me), which goes to your comment of why it's an insult for boys to be "girly"--because anything female-related is less than.
but when men sexually take advantage of women, it is generally portrayed as the horribly disturbing act that it is. Rightly so. When women sexually take advantage of men, it's framed and blocked as sexy.While I get what you're saying here, and generally agree, there is a difference between the rape scenes of the beginning of the vid and the later scenes of Gaeta & Sam being manipulated/convinced into sex. Neither is good, but while the Gaeta/Eight and Sam/Ruby scenes are sketchy and you could argue they were taken advantage of in the emotional sense, both of those men had to
( ... )
And I also agreed that Gaeta & Sam were taken advantage of. Please don't jump down my throat for something I didn't say. I agree with your statement that men can get raped.
I come at this from a different angle to you. I do identify myself a feminist (though in a general, not narrowly defined/cliched way).
Badass, hard as nails girls and sensitive, compassionate boys both really turn my crank. *cough* Me too.
Why is strength considered such an important attribute? Why not skill, compassion, empathy, knowledge, wisdom, kindness? Good call. It made me think about the way I personally refer to 'strong' female characters--I use it as a term that doesn't just refer to physical strength, but may indeed cover some of the things you mention. However you've made me think about why I even choose the word 'strong' then. Why not choose 'complex' or 'well drawn'? I guess one of the reasons is I use 'strong' as shorthand for 'not framed as a victim by the show/source'--so they may not be physically strong but they are portrayed as having power of some form, whether skill based or emotional strength or some other form.
there is a very big line that is crossed when a really fucking strong woman goes after a
( ... )
Comments 28
Reply
Reply
This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to get at, yes. I'm not saying that feminism as a concept is bad or anything - quite to the contrary, but following any set of ideals without thinking them through very well is kind of scary. And it can lead to a completely new set of double standards which are kind of to the reverse of how Real Life ones go. Not better or worse, just different.
To be honest, without these notes, I think I missed a lot of the implications you had set up.
Judging from the comments so far, it looks like some other people definitely have too, so that's my bad. Or possibly just very, very telling about fandom. I was sort of expecting that most people would be at least mildly disturbed by the tonal shift, but... no. It feels sort of like how when
I Want You (She's So Heavy) first came out, I was seriously squicked on a lot of levels ( ... )
Reply
I loved the zombie porn. But mostly because I think I intrinsically did get that kiki was saying what a bunch of sick fucks people can be. And it was AWESOME because I was so grossed out and it WORKED like it should've. But that was just me.
It just seems like an awfully PC sort of party line that you don't have to actively think about too much. Yes, there are definitely exceptions, but there are very large and prominent patterns too.Mmmm, yes and no. I just think it's hard to tell the difference between what are the really our natural patterns and what could just be some 5,000ish years of being told that's how we should be, really ( ... )
Reply
Just saw your vid, so tuning in late, but yes - I think that's fascinating and telling.
In the past couple of months I've actually been thinking for a while about how I desperately wish someone would make a vid about strong female aggression against weaker males, objectfication of males/the sexualization of violence against men in the female gaze (in response to the recent girl power vids - not that I want something female-hating, but just telling another side)... so you hit a chord with me and I picked up the distaste for their actions in the second phase.
I'm one of those (rare?) women who has always had a short fuse and felt an attraction to violence, and I'm not instinctively nuturing at all, have no interest in babies or caretaking of others, etc. so in a way that method of girl power makes a lot of emotional sense to me personally. But then, it makes no sense to me that ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Reply
After our brainy-exchange of joy, I decided to friend you. I could always use more interesting and bouncy people on the friend's list.
Reply
Sorry for the slowness to reply, I've been sorting out Computer Death issues this week. Which have, yay, been sorted.
Reply
but when men sexually take advantage of women, it is generally portrayed as the horribly disturbing act that it is. Rightly so. When women sexually take advantage of men, it's framed and blocked as sexy.While I get what you're saying here, and generally agree, there is a difference between the rape scenes of the beginning of the vid and the later scenes of Gaeta & Sam being manipulated/convinced into sex. Neither is good, but while the Gaeta/Eight and Sam/Ruby scenes are sketchy and you could argue they were taken advantage of in the emotional sense, both of those men had to ( ... )
Reply
Wrong. Men can be raped and still get an erection. It's a biological reaction.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Badass, hard as nails girls and sensitive, compassionate boys both really turn my crank.
*cough* Me too.
Why is strength considered such an important attribute? Why not skill, compassion, empathy, knowledge, wisdom, kindness?
Good call. It made me think about the way I personally refer to 'strong' female characters--I use it as a term that doesn't just refer to physical strength, but may indeed cover some of the things you mention. However you've made me think about why I even choose the word 'strong' then. Why not choose 'complex' or 'well drawn'? I guess one of the reasons is I use 'strong' as shorthand for 'not framed as a victim by the show/source'--so they may not be physically strong but they are portrayed as having power of some form, whether skill based or emotional strength or some other form.
there is a very big line that is crossed when a really fucking strong woman goes after a ( ... )
Reply
Leave a comment