(no subject)
astrid burn: okay, so, augustine's god is not arbitrary...
astrid burn: BUT, is he only not arbitrary in damnation?
astrid burn: b/c he seems pretty arbitrary in salvation
Elinor1813: you mean, is he arbitrary in saving?
Elinor1813: haha right
astrid burn: haha
Elinor1813: i'm not sure, i'm having a major problem with that
astrid burn: me too
Elinor1813: if grace is conferred, but predetermined...
astrid burn: but predetermined because god said so?
astrid burn: because it doesn't matter how good you are on earth, you can still be damned
Elinor1813: right
Elinor1813: and there's not a darn thing you can do about it?
astrid burn: so, if it was predetermined because of what you did, then if you did all good things, you'd be saved
astrid burn: exactly
Elinor1813: my thought was that maybe God KNOWS all but doesn't CONTROL all
Elinor1813: ...?
astrid burn: a righteous life would be the clue that you were saved
astrid burn: right
Elinor1813: like, he knows if you'll be saved or damned
Elinor1813: but it's really you that do it?
astrid burn: but he controls all good actions
Elinor1813: oh man
astrid burn: you control all bad ones
Elinor1813: so anythign good you do is from him
Elinor1813: oh great
astrid burn: his grace is to give you goodness
astrid burn: right?
Elinor1813: so you could be predestined to goodness but choose to be bad?
astrid burn: i don't think so...
Elinor1813: eek
astrid burn: because if you're predestined you're predestined
Elinor1813: haha
Elinor1813: okay
astrid burn: BUT, the devil changed his nature
astrid burn: or something
astrid burn: perverted it
Elinor1813: so that makes it seem like he chooses who will be good and who won't be
Elinor1813: how is that just?
astrid burn: right
astrid burn: exactly
astrid burn: but, we're all bad b/c of adam
Elinor1813: haha
astrid burn: so, we all deserve to be damned
astrid burn: so he arbitrarily saves people...right? because you can't do anything about it, and you can't argue with him
astrid burn: NOOOooo no wait!!!
astrid burn: it's a MYSTERY!
Elinor1813: yeah, that seems wrong too
Elinor1813: why am I responsible for adam???
Elinor1813: haha
Elinor1813: oh RIGHT!
Elinor1813: we CAN'T know!
Elinor1813: that makes it better
Elinor1813: NOT!
astrid burn: hahaha
astrid burn: we're not responsible for adam
astrid burn: adam is responsible for us
astrid burn: he screwed up our nature
Elinor1813: what a freak!
astrid burn: asshole.
astrid burn: adam is supreme asshole.
Elinor1813: why couldn't he just keep his paws off the damn tree of knowledge
Elinor1813: haha
Elinor1813: he IS!
astrid burn: right?!
Elinor1813: righhhhht
astrid burn: okay, so, not arbitrary because of his nice little mysteries and most hidden justice
astrid burn: we just can't understand it all
Elinor1813: right
Elinor1813: too stupid
astrid burn: right
Elinor1813: do you remember the chapters when augustine says that we're predestined for good or evil?
astrid burn: not god.
astrid burn: damnit.
Elinor1813: haha
Elinor1813: even professor f isn't god
astrid burn: i know
astrid burn: i mentioned
astrid burn: hahahaaa
astrid burn: what else do the chapters talk about?
astrid burn: brb
Elinor1813: but i didn't get the feeling that everything was totally predestined
Elinor1813: maybe i just didn't read it all
astrid burn: it can't Really be predestined...because we have "free" will
astrid burn: but all our will is bad
astrid burn: so we just re-justify our damnation
Elinor1813: ohh i see
astrid burn: i should just print out this convo and turn THIS in for my follow-up paper
Elinor1813: haha
Elinor1813: you should!!!!
astrid burn: if she could SEEE how much we talk about this class
astrid burn: golly
Elinor1813: maybe you should do it just to show her
Elinor1813: exactly!
astrid burn: haha
Elinor1813: too bad she's not online
astrid burn: if we get bad grades, bring it in and be like BUT LOOK HOW MUCH WE TRIED!
Elinor1813: that would be funny
astrid burn: haha
astrid burn: yeah
Elinor1813: haha- we try hard!
Elinor1813: i've never seen a class so dedicated
astrid burn: i know!
Elinor1813: i wonder where it all stems from
Elinor1813: fear?
astrid burn: gotta be
Elinor1813: haha
astrid burn: it runs parallel to fear of god, just microcosmic
astrid burn: hahahhahahahhaaaa
Elinor1813: hahahahaha
Elinor1813: so true!
astrid burn: =)