Ah, I was quite upset that Billie and David never interacted, since that was what I was most looking forward to. I am still quite bitter.
I think I'm a little less down about the ret-con than you, I think, because I tend to stick my fingers into my ears and tell myself that Eleven did rewrite time (and during s1-7, Gallifrey did indeed burn) but yes - I can't believe he fixed it with a just kidding!! moment. That was the worst.
ETA: And ignore half of what Steven Moffat says about how the Doctor would ~never!!~ do this by reminding myself that he would have gone ahead with it if it weren't for Clara.
I was upset at the time but since then Gallifrey has overshadowed everything -- and I am somewhat relieved Moffat didn't do anything to ruin Rose or Doctor/Rose, at least. I do think they would've been better served with someone else in the role -- to use Billie, who has no connection to pre-Nine Doctors, and then not let her interact with any post-Nine Doctors, felt like stunt casting. Imagine how much better it would've been to have Carole Ann Ford in that role -- Susan arguing on behalf of the children of Gallifrey
( ... )
Susan arguing for Gallifrey would have been amazing. I try to rationalize it in my head that it's a nice come-full-circle -- with a form of Rose ending the Time War, another form of Rose averting it.
I saw your posts about Ten and EoT (and sherrilina mentioned it) and... it horrified me afterward how entirely Moffat disregarded EoT. I hadn't made the connection. Weirdly, Eleven made a lot of sense to me in this episode... Ten not so much.
But that it's so necessary to fanwank Moffat's stuff and aggressively read AGAINST author intent just to make any sense is... not unexpected, but still somewhat disappointing -- even though s6-7 has given me plenty of practice.
Pretty much all of this. Although I am pretty good at ignoring stupid retcons so I will try to have this not ruin the first 4 seasons for me. But ugh, why couldn't the 50th anniversary fallen a few years earlier, during RTD, or a few years later, under some other showrunner?
And yeah, why did we need to spend 1/3 of this special supposedly celebrating the show on a whole on a stupid sexist Elizabeth-slandering plotline?
Yeah like... IDK I'm pretty determined I'm not going to let Steven Moffat of all people ruin the Doctor Who that I loved, despite his best efforts. And I can do mental gymnastics to ignore the bullshit he's given me and I can use all my strongest Doylism to know that that was never the case, that it was always Eight who fought and ended the Time War for real and Nine and Ten's characters were a result of that, not this John Hurt cup-a-soup bullshit. But that the 50th gives me not something to celebrate and feel happy about but rather something I have to actively work against in order to simply enjoy the show that I've always enjoyed is... pathetic
( ... )
Doylism? And yeah IDEK what the cup-of-soup thing was all about...some things I missed because people were talking, some because they probably didn't make much sense to begin with. Ultimately I'm glad I just watched at home.
In terms of Elizabeth, I had always felt like that line in EoT (as cringe-worthy as it was) was part of the "Ten has really gone over the edge and doesn't give a fuck anymore somebody help" characterization at that time, so I could rationalize it away...so I guess having him only be investigating is better, but by making this episode all about that, they firmly place this episode in the post-WoM-and-pre-EoT period, when he was really...not in that frame of mind in this episode. Another continuity issue. *sigh* And yeah, I mean Ten should have known she would have had bad teeth and breath because 16th century hi no dental hygiene but yeah, way to be meta about your OOC writing!
Doylism as in Doylist vs Watsonian (terms coming from Sherlock Holmes -- ACD vs John Watson), it's just a way of saying I can't tune out real-world influencing factors when I watch fiction, especially TV. So like watching RTD's era, I know RTD didn't write it with this big retcon reset in mind, so I know that all those bits -- "the killer of his own kind", etc -- were written with their intended meaning. I don't feel the need to bend over backwards to make the author's stuff make sense where it doesn't.
Yeah I always got that vibe from EOT Ten as well. So like, I guess I don't mind that he wasn't genuinely romancing her but was investigating what he thought was an alien threat... but then... it turns out she was actually into him, too, and wasn't the least bit put off by his disinterest or his insults or anything. She made me cringe pretty hard.
I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. I even John Hurt, although I really wish they'd just gotten Paul McGann to do that part.
Ten and Eleven together was just a joy. I could watch them as a double act forever. That could just be the show. LOL.
I'm very unsettled by the rewriting of the end of the Time War. I'm trying to put it into the best possible light, just for my own sanity, but yeah, it was kind of like, when Ten said, "What I did that day was wrong." -- That was Moffat saying to RTD -- "That plot development was wrong." SO DISRESPECTFUL.
I'm trying to focus on the positive parts, because mostly I really did enjoy it. And I don't even mind Gallifrey being back, except they CHANGED THE DOCTOR'S ACTIONS IN THE TIME WAR AND THAT IS NOT OKAY.
when Ten said, "What I did that day was wrong." -- That was Moffat saying to RTD -- "That plot development was wrong." SO DISRESPECTFUL.
Exactly. I mean there's that quote floating around where Moffat's like "well the Doctor would never have killed them, so I had to find another way" -- so in other words, "The Doctor would never have done this thing that was the foundation of RTD's work, so lol whatever". Fuck off, Steven Moffat, you enormous ass. He conceives of a Doctor who will brainwash humanity into killing the Silence on sight without knowing why, but he can't conceive of a Doctor who would make a sacrifice himself for the greater good of the universe, or a Doctor who might sometimes have to make hard choices without an easy out? What cheap, uninteresting storytelling.
I mean, Steven Moffat gave an interview later and said "well the Doctor would NEVER have ended the Time War so OBVIOUSLY I had to undo it". That's massively disrespectful to RTD's enitre era.
Where did he say that? The episode has all three Doctors willing to commit genocide on their own people so that's just not how it actually happened at all.
"He wouldn’t. He wouldn’t. I don’t care what’s at stake, he’s not going to do it. So that was the story - of course he never did that. He couldn’t have. He’s the Doctor, he’s the man who doesn’t do that. He’s defined by the fact that he doesn’t do that. Whatever the cost, he will find another way. So it had to be the story of what really happened that he’s forgotten.”
I wasn't all that thrilled by the 50th either, and you explain why very well. Although I've been agreeing with the tumblr discussion, I've been trying to see the positive these past few days, but never managed to convince myself. Today, I was finally able to put into words why ( I posted this meta about it here), and it's about how the original story of a man recovering from the loss he'd suffered and finding redemption from the terrible things he did is a much better, much more inspiring story. In the essay I include points we discussed in the meta about Ten's death, and I borrowed your Twilight/ Harry Potter comparison, I hope you don't mind.
Your meta is spot on. It is just so contrary to the kind of fiction I enjoy and to what I look for in fiction that I genuinely am baffled that someone who enjoyed the story in New Who up to this point could also like the story they were given in DOTD. (I get how someone who always hated the Time War would be happy, but those people and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on anything ever, so...)
To pull the rug out from under your audience like this is unbelievable to me, and to do so for the sake of... what? What, really, did we gain here that couldn't have been gained another way? The idea that the Doctor is infallible and can always make the right choice even when there isn't a right choice? Boring. The idea that anything you've lost can always come back? Insulting to the audience who don't live in a magical universe and has to lose things really for real. And in-universe, if all we gained was the prospect of Gallifrey, that could have been done a dozen different ways that are less insulting.
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I think I'm a little less down about the ret-con than you, I think, because I tend to stick my fingers into my ears and tell myself that Eleven did rewrite time (and during s1-7, Gallifrey did indeed burn) but yes - I can't believe he fixed it with a just kidding!! moment. That was the worst.
ETA: And ignore half of what Steven Moffat says about how the Doctor would ~never!!~ do this by reminding myself that he would have gone ahead with it if it weren't for Clara.
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I saw your posts about Ten and EoT (and sherrilina mentioned it) and... it horrified me afterward how entirely Moffat disregarded EoT. I hadn't made the connection. Weirdly, Eleven made a lot of sense to me in this episode... Ten not so much.
But that it's so necessary to fanwank Moffat's stuff and aggressively read AGAINST author intent just to make any sense is... not unexpected, but still somewhat disappointing -- even though s6-7 has given me plenty of practice.
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And yeah, why did we need to spend 1/3 of this special supposedly celebrating the show on a whole on a stupid sexist Elizabeth-slandering plotline?
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In terms of Elizabeth, I had always felt like that line in EoT (as cringe-worthy as it was) was part of the "Ten has really gone over the edge and doesn't give a fuck anymore somebody help" characterization at that time, so I could rationalize it away...so I guess having him only be investigating is better, but by making this episode all about that, they firmly place this episode in the post-WoM-and-pre-EoT period, when he was really...not in that frame of mind in this episode. Another continuity issue. *sigh* And yeah, I mean Ten should have known she would have had bad teeth and breath because 16th century hi no dental hygiene but yeah, way to be meta about your OOC writing!
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Yeah I always got that vibe from EOT Ten as well. So like, I guess I don't mind that he wasn't genuinely romancing her but was investigating what he thought was an alien threat... but then... it turns out she was actually into him, too, and wasn't the least bit put off by his disinterest or his insults or anything. She made me cringe pretty hard.
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I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. I even John Hurt, although I really wish they'd just gotten Paul McGann to do that part.
Ten and Eleven together was just a joy. I could watch them as a double act forever. That could just be the show. LOL.
I'm very unsettled by the rewriting of the end of the Time War. I'm trying to put it into the best possible light, just for my own sanity, but yeah, it was kind of like, when Ten said, "What I did that day was wrong." -- That was Moffat saying to RTD -- "That plot development was wrong." SO DISRESPECTFUL.
I'm trying to focus on the positive parts, because mostly I really did enjoy it. And I don't even mind Gallifrey being back, except they CHANGED THE DOCTOR'S ACTIONS IN THE TIME WAR AND THAT IS NOT OKAY.
ARGH, I'm so conflicted.
There need to be fix-it fics written, ASAP.
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Exactly. I mean there's that quote floating around where Moffat's like "well the Doctor would never have killed them, so I had to find another way" -- so in other words, "The Doctor would never have done this thing that was the foundation of RTD's work, so lol whatever". Fuck off, Steven Moffat, you enormous ass. He conceives of a Doctor who will brainwash humanity into killing the Silence on sight without knowing why, but he can't conceive of a Doctor who would make a sacrifice himself for the greater good of the universe, or a Doctor who might sometimes have to make hard choices without an easy out? What cheap, uninteresting storytelling.
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Oop forgot the source.
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To pull the rug out from under your audience like this is unbelievable to me, and to do so for the sake of... what? What, really, did we gain here that couldn't have been gained another way? The idea that the Doctor is infallible and can always make the right choice even when there isn't a right choice? Boring. The idea that anything you've lost can always come back? Insulting to the audience who don't live in a magical universe and has to lose things really for real. And in-universe, if all we gained was the prospect of Gallifrey, that could have been done a dozen different ways that are less insulting.
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