I was thinking along the lines of Snape not knowing what the plan is about, but what gets me is that he says that Voldemort intends him to do it at the end. That's the only thing that makes me wonder if he truly knew.
Is it weird that I can picture Alan Rickman doing this scene wonderfully?
I like that reading of the scene, but I think Snape wouldn't dare to have bluffed that he knows the Plan if he doesn't really - all it would take is Bellatrix to mention to Voldemort that Snape knows and Snape's will completely lose V's trust.
It's unlikely Bella would tell Voldemort anything purposely, as it could reveal that she's been talking about the Plan, but it could slip out accidentally anytime. I can't see Snape taking such a big risk.
* Some are wondering about the nickname Cissa, because it’s often used in fanfic. I don’t know why, sisters give often themselves nicknames (like my Rantanplan, Gaga, Gawel, Nain de Jardin, for my sister) and Cissa is really more normal than Narc.
Also, Bella is less crazy than in OOTP, but like Sirius, she had time to pull herself together away of Azkaban. Ok, two weeks is short for this.
* We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot--"
Well, Bella, technically, Snape is the first to set foot here, or his mother, if it’s where he grew up.
* Cissy, you must not do this, you can't trust him--" "The Dark Lord trusts him, doesn't he?" "The Dark Lord is... I believe... mistaken,"
Fun how it’s exactly the kind of conversation the Order must have about Snape. In fact, before seeing it was Snape’s house, I thought “ha, it’s remind me someone.”
* How Narcissa know so well the way? I think she already comes there, but when? And why?
* a man with long black hair parted in curtains around a sallow face and black eyesWhere’s the
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yeah, full book spoilerscadesamaAugust 16 2005, 22:22:32 UTC
Who want to bet that the stuff Wormtail doesn’t want Snape know is that Voldy placed him to spy Snape? And Snape knows it perfectly, without using Occlumency.
Good catch. I think it's likely that Voldemort really doesn't trust Snape, and sent Wormtail to spy on his spy. Even though Wormtail's a turncoat, he's such a weasel that Voldemort knows he can trust him.
* I don’t understand the point of this chapter. Or it’s to make us doubt during the book, convince us he’ll lying to the DEs and is really for the Order, to shock us with the end, or it’s to say, “hey, look, he was really evil since the beginning!”, but it’s too soon. I don’t understand. I admit, I’m a fan of the Double-triple-quadruple agent theories, so it could be me in denial.I think this chapter exists solely for the purpose of psyching us out. It does summarize the reasons why Snape has Voldemort's confidence, which actually minimizes the possibility of Snape being evil, imho. By delineating what his cover story is, we can easily trust what's going on with him. It'
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Re: yeah, full book spoilerscheeringcharmAugust 16 2005, 22:27:58 UTC
I think this chapter exists solely for the purpose of psyching us out. It does summarize the reasons why Snape has Voldemort's confidence, which actually minimizes the possibility of Snape being evil, imho.
Or, she could say at the end: "You were surprised that Snape was evil? I told you everything right in Chapter 2 of HBP."
I think this chapter proved to me that Snape was on the good side. My guess was that he is acting like a spy for the Dark side, while actually spying for the good side. He twists his words around for his fellow DEs to make him look like he was on their side all along, when really, he's been on the Order of the Phoenix, using their information to help Dumbledore. Not that I like Snape, particularly, either.
I don't know about anyone else, but all the stuff Snape told us I figured out for myself from reading the books. The only point, real point, to this chapter is the Unbreakable Vow, and that takes about 4 pages. And, really, is this necessary even for that? Wouldn't Harry's suspicions of Draco, along with the overheard conversations between Snape and Draco make the ending much better with it's ambiguity? What was her point in telling the reader more than Harry in this instance? So we can say throughout the book: Yep, Harry. You're right. Draco's up to something. Personally, I think it would have been better - more tension - to not know if Harry was delusional about Draco or not. I liken it to GoF: what if she had inserted a chapter that showed Wormtail and Voldemort replacing Moody. All of the tension would have been gone from the story, and the revelation of Moody/Crouch Jr. at the end. Take away Spinner's End and you have a shocker, even more of a shocker, at the end
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peculates here that perhaps DD and Snape have their own Unbreakable Vow, and that's why DD is so trusting of Snape.
That is the only thing that would explain DD's trust of Snape. And, it is probably the only thing that 1) would make Snape loyal to DD (and really anyone but himself) and 2) the only thing that might have a shot at convincing Harry that Snape is trustworthy. We don't know what the consequences of breaking the Unbreakable Vow, but my guess is death, or losing all magical ability, or losing your soul...or something equally horrible. I guess we can assume that it would be enough to keep Snape on the straight and narrow.
If that turns out to be the case, then I understand the need for that portion of the chapter. The other stuff is superfulous.
Now I wonder: why doesn't Voldemort make his DE's take an Unbreakable Vow? Or does he?
Good points, but knowing JKR she'll probably forget about this for the next book.
V, being a natural villain, would have overlooked having his minions use the Unbreakable Vow. Just like he talked too much about Harry to the DE's during the graveyard scene in GoF when he could have been trying to blast Harry off.
Among other things we learned in this chapter is that Wormtail's big reason for being absent from OotP was not, as I had once worried, because he was spying on Hogwarts/Number 12/The Ministry in rat form. No, it was because he had to "keep house" for Snape. *rolls eyes* Also, it seems that Snape likes Peter even less than Harry. Well, maybe not that little.
Narcissa's role was important to the overall plot, I suppose, but she's still not a very interesting character to me. The Cissy/Snape subtext amused me though.
No, it was because he had to "keep house" for Snape.
It's almost as lame as Snape stopping Quirrell b/c he didn't feel he was worthy of ths stone. No, check that. It was as lame. So, where is Wormtail the other 10 months of the year? Alone? I don't think that Voldemort trusts Wormtail. Who babysits him when Snape can't?
Maybe Cissy does it and that's why she knew how to get to the house. Something's got to keep her busy with Draco-dums away at school and her darling Lucius locked up. It's not like she seems to work outside the home. (I can't really see the traditional Blacks or Malfoys approving of women doing so -- Sirius and Tonks' branch not included of course
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I still wonder if the amount of noise one makes when Apparating has anything to do with power, or if it's just personality. Bella is more authoritative, so her pop is louder than Cissy's
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I'm not this deep in any other fandom, so I don't know if this is common or not so I'll ask the question: are villans in other worlds as stupid as Voldemort and his DE's seem to be? There not always stupid, but man, they slip up a lot.
Depends. My biggest fandoms featured immensely intelligent villains along side deeply stupid ones. The Emperor in Star Wars, of course, is the only intelligent character in the films. Most Buffy villains were righteously stupid, but there were a couple (Angelus, or the Mayor) who were smart. The Angel villains were actually brilliant most of the time, which was why the good guys always lost (even when they won; man I miss that show).
So, no, HP's villains aren't any stupider than most villains. It's just annoying because we hear so frequently about how brilliant Tom Riddle is, as well as how smart the good guys are. Which is just as problematic for me. If the good guys are so smart, why haven't they taken down the clearly brain damaged Voldemort?
If the good guys are so smart, why haven't they taken down the clearly brain damaged Voldemort?
I think so too, I just don't see sings of any of the 'good guys' being so clever. They never really think, never doubt, never thing beyond the obvious or have any clever plans to win...the 'bad guys' fool them agains and again, they let innocent go to prison without checking and so on. I guess you can't expect much of people who give up thinking for themselves (not that I think that Dumbledore is better).
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*bounce, bounce, bounce*
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Is it weird that I can picture Alan Rickman doing this scene wonderfully?
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It's unlikely Bella would tell Voldemort anything purposely, as it could reveal that she's been talking about the Plan, but it could slip out accidentally anytime. I can't see Snape taking such a big risk.
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Also, Bella is less crazy than in OOTP, but like Sirius, she had time to pull herself together away of Azkaban. Ok, two weeks is short for this.
* We must be the first of our kind ever to set foot--"
Well, Bella, technically, Snape is the first to set foot here, or his mother, if it’s where he grew up.
* Cissy, you must not do this, you can't trust him--"
"The Dark Lord trusts him, doesn't he?"
"The Dark Lord is... I believe... mistaken,"
Fun how it’s exactly the kind of conversation the Order must have about Snape. In fact, before seeing it was Snape’s house, I thought “ha, it’s remind me someone.”
* How Narcissa know so well the way? I think she already comes there, but when? And why?
* a man with long black hair parted in curtains around a sallow face and black eyesWhere’s the ( ... )
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And Snape knows it perfectly, without using Occlumency.
Good catch. I think it's likely that Voldemort really doesn't trust Snape, and sent Wormtail to spy on his spy. Even though Wormtail's a turncoat, he's such a weasel that Voldemort knows he can trust him.
* I don’t understand the point of this chapter. Or it’s to make us doubt during the book, convince us he’ll lying to the DEs and is really for the Order, to shock us with the end, or it’s to say, “hey, look, he was really evil since the beginning!”, but it’s too soon. I don’t understand. I admit, I’m a fan of the Double-triple-quadruple agent theories, so it could be me in denial.I think this chapter exists solely for the purpose of psyching us out. It does summarize the reasons why Snape has Voldemort's confidence, which actually minimizes the possibility of Snape being evil, imho. By delineating what his cover story is, we can easily trust what's going on with him. It' ( ... )
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Or, she could say at the end: "You were surprised that Snape was evil? I told you everything right in Chapter 2 of HBP."
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That is the only thing that would explain DD's trust of Snape. And, it is probably the only thing that 1) would make Snape loyal to DD (and really anyone but himself) and 2) the only thing that might have a shot at convincing Harry that Snape is trustworthy. We don't know what the consequences of breaking the Unbreakable Vow, but my guess is death, or losing all magical ability, or losing your soul...or something equally horrible. I guess we can assume that it would be enough to keep Snape on the straight and narrow.
If that turns out to be the case, then I understand the need for that portion of the chapter. The other stuff is superfulous.
Now I wonder: why doesn't Voldemort make his DE's take an Unbreakable Vow? Or does he?
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V, being a natural villain, would have overlooked having his minions use the Unbreakable Vow. Just like he talked too much about Harry to the DE's during the graveyard scene in GoF when he could have been trying to blast Harry off.
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Among other things we learned in this chapter is that Wormtail's big reason for being absent from OotP was not, as I had once worried, because he was spying on Hogwarts/Number 12/The Ministry in rat form. No, it was because he had to "keep house" for Snape. *rolls eyes* Also, it seems that Snape likes Peter even less than Harry. Well, maybe not that little.
Narcissa's role was important to the overall plot, I suppose, but she's still not a very interesting character to me. The Cissy/Snape subtext amused me though.
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It's almost as lame as Snape stopping Quirrell b/c he didn't feel he was worthy of ths stone. No, check that. It was as lame. So, where is Wormtail the other 10 months of the year? Alone? I don't think that Voldemort trusts Wormtail. Who babysits him when Snape can't?
Having Wormtail there at all is L.A.M.E.
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I'm not this deep in any other fandom, so I don't know if this is common or not so I'll ask the question: are villans in other worlds as stupid as Voldemort and his DE's seem to be? There not always stupid, but man, they slip up a lot.
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So, no, HP's villains aren't any stupider than most villains. It's just annoying because we hear so frequently about how brilliant Tom Riddle is, as well as how smart the good guys are. Which is just as problematic for me. If the good guys are so smart, why haven't they taken down the clearly brain damaged Voldemort?
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I think so too, I just don't see sings of any of the 'good guys' being so clever. They never really think, never doubt, never thing beyond the obvious or have any clever plans to win...the 'bad guys' fool them agains and again, they let innocent go to prison without checking and so on. I guess you can't expect much of people who give up thinking for themselves (not that I think that Dumbledore is better).
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