meta on 5.17 by me and a meta rec
First: dafnap has a thoughtful post up on SPN and sexism in which among other interesting things she points out Jane as a foil of Dean in 5.17.
Second: Despite my list of like 45 other things to write about, apparently this was foremost on my mind today!
Dean and Lisa in 5.17
Inspired by an exchange in a great meta post by yourlibrarian, I'd like to comment a bit on how my view of the scene with Lisa at the end of 5.17 differs from some reactions I've read.
yourlibrarian wrote in her meta:
But it seems a little much to think that a woman like Lisa has no one else in her life, so that she can simply be there for Dean whenever he waltzes in.
and in response to one of my comments:
I think she was reading him adeptly and is likely a compassionate person. But I think she also shows herself as willing to offer much more. She seems personally moved by his statement about seeing himself happy with her and says (I'd have to go back to the recording) something like "I can do that." I think it reads differently than if, like any woman who sees a guy she has only briefly known arrive out of the blue in a serious emotional state, she's trying to handle a bad situation that she's out of her depth on.
This started out as a response to that comment, and then I kept thinking about it, and then got kind of huge, so I decided to make it a post.
My interpretation of this scene was very different. I didn't see any sign that Lisa was portrayed as agreeing with Dean's sentiment, or as waiting around for Dean to waltz in and sweep her off her feet, or offering anything along those lines.
Given the context of our introduction to Lisa, I felt the opposite was the case.
When Lisa was first introduced in episode 3.02 "The Kids Are Alright," it was clear that she considered Dean a strings-free one night stand -- someone she'd fucked once and left behind years ago.
The interactions in that episode flipped the normal gender dynamic of how flings are popularly portrayed: namely the clingy woman and the fleeing man. Instead, it's Dean who shows up (after 9 years!) looking for more, and Lisa who tells him clearly she's not interested. Instead of the male half of a fling objectifying his conquest to his friends, it's Lisa's female friends who ogle Dean and gossip about him in a sexualized manner. And unlike the sexist stereotype of single mothers, Lisa isn't looking to Dean to be a father to her child, biologically or otherwise. The opposite, in fact.
First she denies that Ben is his son. Then when Dean teaches Ben how to fight bullies, Lisa reacts negatively to his interference in her parenting:
LISA
What are you even still doing here? We had one weekend together a million years ago. You don't know me. You have no business with my son.
Lisa reasserts their status as near-strangers and her disinterest in having Dean continue to be a presence in her life. Even after she expresses her gratitude towards Dean for saving her son's life, and picks up on Dean's wistfulness about possibly being a father, she's adamant that he has no ties to either her or her son:
LISA
(smiling)
You're off the hook. I did a blood test when he was a baby. There was this guy -- some bar back in a biker joint.
(off DEAN'S look)
What? I had a type. Leather jacket, couple of scars, no mailing address? I was there. Guess I was a little wild back then. Before I became a mom. So yeah. You can relax.
Additionally, here she re-emphasizes that their relationship was a one-time hookup, and that he was just her type at the time, possibly one of many.
Given Lisa's interactions with Dean in 3.02, when it comes to reading in the exchange in 5.17 as anything but a "woman who sees a guy she has only briefly known arrive out of the blue in a serious emotional state, [and]...trying to handle a bad situation that she's out of her depth on," I feel as if perhaps some viewers are bringing to this scene expectations about how the show views Lisa's feelings towards Dean that aren't supported by the show itself.
What I saw in 5.17 was a woman who was surprised and not a little wary when Dean pops up out of nowhere on her front porch. Her expression is wary while he talks, and quickly shifts to worried as she picks up on his distress.
The passage that appears to be questioned by folks is as follows:
LISA
Dean, you didn’t come all the way here to talk about real estate. You alright?
DEAN
No, not really.
LISA
Well, what is it?
DEAN
Look, I have no illusions, okay? I know the life that I live, I know how that’s gonna end for me. Whatever. I’m okay with that. But I wanted you to know…that when I do picture myself happy…it’s with you. And the kid.
LISA
Wow.
DEAN
I mean, you don’t have to say anything.
LISA
No, I…I mean, I know. I know. I want to. Come inside. Let me get you a beer.
Some viewers seem to be interpreting Lisa's "I want to" as indicating she still has interest in a relationship with Dean or has been harboring some kind of hope for a relationship since last she saw him. That she's echoing back his words about picturing himself happy with her and Ben.
What this ignores is Dean's statement in between -- that Lisa doesn't have to say anything. Instead, what I take from this exchange is:
a)Lisa asks Dean to get to the point of his visit, and asks if he's okay. This passage echoes our introduction to Lisa in 3.02 where she bluntly asks what he's doing at her house after 9 years. Lisa doesn't beat around the bush in either exchange. She's not coy, she's not flirtatious: she wants to know what the hell he's doing there.
b)Dean says he's not okay. Lisa asks for more information. They have enough of a past (great sex, and he saved her son's life) for her to care enough to ask when he's clearly in trouble.
c)Dean implies that his life is going to end badly and that he's okay with that. Then says that Lisa is his ideal of a happy life. Not that he thinks that life is possible, but that she's a dream -- an illusion.
d)She understandably reacts with surprise, given that the sum total of their relationship to this point has been a couple of days over the course of 10+ years.
e)He tells her she doesn't have to say anything -- re: he doesn't have any expectations of her.
f)Lisa says she understands that she doesn't have to say anything in response to his revelation, but that she wants to talk to him further. She immediately tries to draw him inside. Given her tone of voice and her characterization in 3.02, I don't believe she's indicating that she wants to make his dream a reality here, but that she's reacting to the desperation of Dean's words.
Dean shows up at Lisa's door after a two year gap and starts talking like he's in crisis, using very suicidal phrasing. Lisa is perceptive enough to pick up on it, and she starts doing anything she can to get him inside. Not because she thinks they're going to rekindle any kind of grand romance (or even just have another wild fling) but because he's clearly in trouble and talking as if his life is going to end immanently.
As the scene continues and Dean moves toward leaving, Lisa's urgency increases. She grasps for ways to make him stay, first by referencing the "bombshell" he dropped, then by offering him a beer:
DEAN
I wish I could. Take care of yourself, Lisa.
LISA
No, wait, wait! You can’t just drop a bombshell like that and then leave.
DEAN
I know. I’m sorry. But I don’t have a choice.
LISA
Yeah, you do. You do. You can come inside and let me get you a beer. We can talk.
Again, Dean is framing things in very fraught language here, and Lisa is reacting to that, desperate to stop him, to get him inside. And then Dean escalates:
DEAN
Lisa, wait a minute. Things are about to get really bad.
...
The people that I’m gonna see next, they’re not gonna get anything from me without agreeing to a few conditions.
And Lisa continues to try and stop him, physically tugging on his arm: she appears to understand that he's facing something terrible, possibly his death, what with the talk of bargaining. So she tries one more time to stop him.
LISA
Just...just come inside. Please. And whatever you’re thinking of doing, don’t do it.
DEAN
I have to.
LISA
Just stay an hour.
There's nothing flirtatious about any of her lines in this scene. This isn't how one talks to someone one hopes to rekindle a relationship with. Instead, this is how one speaks to someone in clear crisis, someone perching on the ledge.
Compare the things Dean says to Lisa in 5.17 to any common list of suicide warning signs: in the scene with Lisa, Dean exhibits forms of the following:
-talking about death and dying
-preoccupation with death
-no hope for the future
-self-loathing
-getting affairs in order
-saying goodbye
-withdrawing from others
What do you do when faced with someone teetering on the ledge? You do what Lisa tries here. You talk them down. You get them inside, even for an hour. For a beer. To talk about their crazy pipe dream of making a family with you. Anything.
It's Dean, in 3.02 and in 5.17 (not to mention "Dream a little dream of me"), who pictures himself in a domestic relationship with Lisa and Ben. Despite offering that he can stay for awhile in 3.02, Lisa does not give him any overtures toward anything remotely like a relationship beyond the sexual.
When Lisa reiterates at the end of 3.02 that Ben isn't Dean's, and comments on Dean's disappointment, Dean speaks of the possibility of family much in the same way he does in 5.17: as something that isn't in his future, and yet something he feels is missing from his life.
DEAN
Yeah, I don't know. It's weird, you know your life... I mean, this house and a kid... it's not my life. Never will be. Some stuff happened to me recently, and, uh... anyway,a guy in my situation -- you start to think, you know. I'm gonna be gone one day, and what am I leaving behind besides a car? I don't know.
LISA
Ben may not be your kid, but he wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for you. That's a lot if you ask me.
And Lisa, in turn, doesn't take this as an opportunity to make this dream of a family happen for Dean. She doesn't melt at his feet, jumping at the opportunity to further their relationship beyond that of casual sex partners. Instead she once again states that Ben isn't his, reiterates her gratitude, but leaves it at that.
The view of sex shown in "The Kids Are Alright" was refreshing: we have a male protagonist interested in rekindling something with a one-time female fling, and she turns him down, turns down his gestures toward being a father figure to her child, and explains exactly what place he had in her life: just sex. All without belittling him or emasculating him. All without him taking it badly or feeling rejected.
The interactions in 3.02 represent an unusually adult exchange given the topic, and this is why I am puzzled with the interpretation that Lisa's return in 5.17 was being portrayed by the show as anything different from how she interacted with Dean in the earlier episode. In fact, their exchanges are remarkably similar: Lisa is surprised to see Dean, bluntly asks him what he's doing, and does not encourage his overtures towards anything more.
The difference between 3.02 and 5.17? In the latter Dean is clearly teetering on a precipice, and Lisa reacts like any compassionate person would: tries to stop him from falling using everything at her disposal, even if this is talking further about this dream of a family that she has never been shown to share.
[note: i should add that both 3.02 and 5.17 were written by women!]
[note2: all transcript excerpts from Supernatural Wiki, which is awesome.]
Second: Despite my list of like 45 other things to write about, apparently this was foremost on my mind today!
Dean and Lisa in 5.17
Inspired by an exchange in a great meta post by yourlibrarian, I'd like to comment a bit on how my view of the scene with Lisa at the end of 5.17 differs from some reactions I've read.
yourlibrarian wrote in her meta:
But it seems a little much to think that a woman like Lisa has no one else in her life, so that she can simply be there for Dean whenever he waltzes in.
and in response to one of my comments:
I think she was reading him adeptly and is likely a compassionate person. But I think she also shows herself as willing to offer much more. She seems personally moved by his statement about seeing himself happy with her and says (I'd have to go back to the recording) something like "I can do that." I think it reads differently than if, like any woman who sees a guy she has only briefly known arrive out of the blue in a serious emotional state, she's trying to handle a bad situation that she's out of her depth on.
This started out as a response to that comment, and then I kept thinking about it, and then got kind of huge, so I decided to make it a post.
My interpretation of this scene was very different. I didn't see any sign that Lisa was portrayed as agreeing with Dean's sentiment, or as waiting around for Dean to waltz in and sweep her off her feet, or offering anything along those lines.
Given the context of our introduction to Lisa, I felt the opposite was the case.
When Lisa was first introduced in episode 3.02 "The Kids Are Alright," it was clear that she considered Dean a strings-free one night stand -- someone she'd fucked once and left behind years ago.
The interactions in that episode flipped the normal gender dynamic of how flings are popularly portrayed: namely the clingy woman and the fleeing man. Instead, it's Dean who shows up (after 9 years!) looking for more, and Lisa who tells him clearly she's not interested. Instead of the male half of a fling objectifying his conquest to his friends, it's Lisa's female friends who ogle Dean and gossip about him in a sexualized manner. And unlike the sexist stereotype of single mothers, Lisa isn't looking to Dean to be a father to her child, biologically or otherwise. The opposite, in fact.
First she denies that Ben is his son. Then when Dean teaches Ben how to fight bullies, Lisa reacts negatively to his interference in her parenting:
LISA
What are you even still doing here? We had one weekend together a million years ago. You don't know me. You have no business with my son.
Lisa reasserts their status as near-strangers and her disinterest in having Dean continue to be a presence in her life. Even after she expresses her gratitude towards Dean for saving her son's life, and picks up on Dean's wistfulness about possibly being a father, she's adamant that he has no ties to either her or her son:
LISA
(smiling)
You're off the hook. I did a blood test when he was a baby. There was this guy -- some bar back in a biker joint.
(off DEAN'S look)
What? I had a type. Leather jacket, couple of scars, no mailing address? I was there. Guess I was a little wild back then. Before I became a mom. So yeah. You can relax.
Additionally, here she re-emphasizes that their relationship was a one-time hookup, and that he was just her type at the time, possibly one of many.
Given Lisa's interactions with Dean in 3.02, when it comes to reading in the exchange in 5.17 as anything but a "woman who sees a guy she has only briefly known arrive out of the blue in a serious emotional state, [and]...trying to handle a bad situation that she's out of her depth on," I feel as if perhaps some viewers are bringing to this scene expectations about how the show views Lisa's feelings towards Dean that aren't supported by the show itself.
What I saw in 5.17 was a woman who was surprised and not a little wary when Dean pops up out of nowhere on her front porch. Her expression is wary while he talks, and quickly shifts to worried as she picks up on his distress.
The passage that appears to be questioned by folks is as follows:
LISA
Dean, you didn’t come all the way here to talk about real estate. You alright?
DEAN
No, not really.
LISA
Well, what is it?
DEAN
Look, I have no illusions, okay? I know the life that I live, I know how that’s gonna end for me. Whatever. I’m okay with that. But I wanted you to know…that when I do picture myself happy…it’s with you. And the kid.
LISA
Wow.
DEAN
I mean, you don’t have to say anything.
LISA
No, I…I mean, I know. I know. I want to. Come inside. Let me get you a beer.
Some viewers seem to be interpreting Lisa's "I want to" as indicating she still has interest in a relationship with Dean or has been harboring some kind of hope for a relationship since last she saw him. That she's echoing back his words about picturing himself happy with her and Ben.
What this ignores is Dean's statement in between -- that Lisa doesn't have to say anything. Instead, what I take from this exchange is:
a)Lisa asks Dean to get to the point of his visit, and asks if he's okay. This passage echoes our introduction to Lisa in 3.02 where she bluntly asks what he's doing at her house after 9 years. Lisa doesn't beat around the bush in either exchange. She's not coy, she's not flirtatious: she wants to know what the hell he's doing there.
b)Dean says he's not okay. Lisa asks for more information. They have enough of a past (great sex, and he saved her son's life) for her to care enough to ask when he's clearly in trouble.
c)Dean implies that his life is going to end badly and that he's okay with that. Then says that Lisa is his ideal of a happy life. Not that he thinks that life is possible, but that she's a dream -- an illusion.
d)She understandably reacts with surprise, given that the sum total of their relationship to this point has been a couple of days over the course of 10+ years.
e)He tells her she doesn't have to say anything -- re: he doesn't have any expectations of her.
f)Lisa says she understands that she doesn't have to say anything in response to his revelation, but that she wants to talk to him further. She immediately tries to draw him inside. Given her tone of voice and her characterization in 3.02, I don't believe she's indicating that she wants to make his dream a reality here, but that she's reacting to the desperation of Dean's words.
Dean shows up at Lisa's door after a two year gap and starts talking like he's in crisis, using very suicidal phrasing. Lisa is perceptive enough to pick up on it, and she starts doing anything she can to get him inside. Not because she thinks they're going to rekindle any kind of grand romance (or even just have another wild fling) but because he's clearly in trouble and talking as if his life is going to end immanently.
As the scene continues and Dean moves toward leaving, Lisa's urgency increases. She grasps for ways to make him stay, first by referencing the "bombshell" he dropped, then by offering him a beer:
DEAN
I wish I could. Take care of yourself, Lisa.
LISA
No, wait, wait! You can’t just drop a bombshell like that and then leave.
DEAN
I know. I’m sorry. But I don’t have a choice.
LISA
Yeah, you do. You do. You can come inside and let me get you a beer. We can talk.
Again, Dean is framing things in very fraught language here, and Lisa is reacting to that, desperate to stop him, to get him inside. And then Dean escalates:
DEAN
Lisa, wait a minute. Things are about to get really bad.
...
The people that I’m gonna see next, they’re not gonna get anything from me without agreeing to a few conditions.
And Lisa continues to try and stop him, physically tugging on his arm: she appears to understand that he's facing something terrible, possibly his death, what with the talk of bargaining. So she tries one more time to stop him.
LISA
Just...just come inside. Please. And whatever you’re thinking of doing, don’t do it.
DEAN
I have to.
LISA
Just stay an hour.
There's nothing flirtatious about any of her lines in this scene. This isn't how one talks to someone one hopes to rekindle a relationship with. Instead, this is how one speaks to someone in clear crisis, someone perching on the ledge.
Compare the things Dean says to Lisa in 5.17 to any common list of suicide warning signs: in the scene with Lisa, Dean exhibits forms of the following:
-talking about death and dying
-preoccupation with death
-no hope for the future
-self-loathing
-getting affairs in order
-saying goodbye
-withdrawing from others
What do you do when faced with someone teetering on the ledge? You do what Lisa tries here. You talk them down. You get them inside, even for an hour. For a beer. To talk about their crazy pipe dream of making a family with you. Anything.
It's Dean, in 3.02 and in 5.17 (not to mention "Dream a little dream of me"), who pictures himself in a domestic relationship with Lisa and Ben. Despite offering that he can stay for awhile in 3.02, Lisa does not give him any overtures toward anything remotely like a relationship beyond the sexual.
When Lisa reiterates at the end of 3.02 that Ben isn't Dean's, and comments on Dean's disappointment, Dean speaks of the possibility of family much in the same way he does in 5.17: as something that isn't in his future, and yet something he feels is missing from his life.
DEAN
Yeah, I don't know. It's weird, you know your life... I mean, this house and a kid... it's not my life. Never will be. Some stuff happened to me recently, and, uh... anyway,a guy in my situation -- you start to think, you know. I'm gonna be gone one day, and what am I leaving behind besides a car? I don't know.
LISA
Ben may not be your kid, but he wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for you. That's a lot if you ask me.
And Lisa, in turn, doesn't take this as an opportunity to make this dream of a family happen for Dean. She doesn't melt at his feet, jumping at the opportunity to further their relationship beyond that of casual sex partners. Instead she once again states that Ben isn't his, reiterates her gratitude, but leaves it at that.
The view of sex shown in "The Kids Are Alright" was refreshing: we have a male protagonist interested in rekindling something with a one-time female fling, and she turns him down, turns down his gestures toward being a father figure to her child, and explains exactly what place he had in her life: just sex. All without belittling him or emasculating him. All without him taking it badly or feeling rejected.
The interactions in 3.02 represent an unusually adult exchange given the topic, and this is why I am puzzled with the interpretation that Lisa's return in 5.17 was being portrayed by the show as anything different from how she interacted with Dean in the earlier episode. In fact, their exchanges are remarkably similar: Lisa is surprised to see Dean, bluntly asks him what he's doing, and does not encourage his overtures towards anything more.
The difference between 3.02 and 5.17? In the latter Dean is clearly teetering on a precipice, and Lisa reacts like any compassionate person would: tries to stop him from falling using everything at her disposal, even if this is talking further about this dream of a family that she has never been shown to share.
[note: i should add that both 3.02 and 5.17 were written by women!]
[note2: all transcript excerpts from Supernatural Wiki, which is awesome.]