Dean 'telling' Sam what Sam thinks was one of those 'bang-my-head-against-the-wall' scenes--you are right, that is NOT the way to communicate with anyone, much less Sam! And it's the same mistake Dean made when he was telling Cas to stop what he was doing in season 6 with Purgatory--the whole 'don't do it cause I told you not to' thing that just doesn't work but is Dean's fallback way to communicate (which I'm sure he learned from John, and it worked on Dean. Sigh.)
"Benny was there when Dean became that Dean"
Now that is a very interesting observation. I think you are going in the right direction with with this being one of the reasons why Sam isn't connecting with Dean right now.
my total and utter speculation is that it’s not going to be Benny that needs to be reigned in this season, but Dean
I like this speculation a *lot*. Partly because it's something new to explore with Dean: the show's flirted with the idea that he could be monstrous (by paralleling him with Gordon, for one example; Endverse, for another), and shown him get scary in isolated incidents of extremity (hitting Ben while trying to save Lisa, for one example), but it's shied away from giving that part of his character its due with an actual *arc*. (Hell doesn't count, because the story that would give that part of Dean's character its due would require that Dean have a *choice* about his behaviour.) And it flips the usual SPN script of *Sam* being the one who needs to be watched, who needs to be humanised, who needs to be reined in--which, 8 years in, can only be a refreshing change. *g*
And partly I like this spec because of this bit you singled out:
The other scene that struck me between Benny and Dean along these lines is the bit in
( ... )
I'm glad this speculation doesn't sound TOTALLY BASELESS. It just dawned on me last night and I got excited about it as a potential angle on Dean's character arc this season.
(Hell doesn't count, because the story that would give that part of Dean's character its due would require that Dean have a *choice* about his behaviour.)I think it's more complex than Hell not counting. Because I think hell has everything to do with Dean's behavior now, because I don't think you can easily separate Dean being coerced into torturing in hell with Dean torturing in Purgatory, for example. I don't think it's a matter of blame or choice as far as how Dean's reacting right now. I do think that doesn't excuse how he's behaving right now either. Purgatory wasn't about choice for him any more than hell was, I guess is what I'm saying. They were both impossible situations to maintain your full vulnerable humanity in. Dean might have had more agency in Purgatory -- he's not on the rack, for example -- but in a lot of ways he doesn't have much more choice
( ... )
I don't think you can easily separate Dean being coerced into torturing in hell with Dean torturing in Purgatory [...] Dean might have had more agency in Purgatory -- he's not on the rack, for example -- but in a lot of ways he doesn't have much more choice than he did in hell, not if he doesn't want to die in the first five minutes.We differ in this, then, because I totally think you can separate the two. Hell, as you said, was coersion: coersion into transformation, as the experience of Hell is designed to strip people of their humanity and turn them into demons. Therefore, the result of Dean agreeing to get off the rack and pick up his own knife was inevitable--the only choice he had in that situation was *when* he'd say yes. *If* wasn't even a question. (Given the show's mythology about humans becoming demons by forgetting or abandoning everything that made them human in the first place, I've always seen Dean getting off the rack in Hell as less of a self-preservational choice than a self-*negating* choice. While Dean's guilt over
( ... )
reply 1/2 amonitrateNovember 10 2012, 17:01:28 UTC
Therefore, the result of Dean agreeing to get off the rack and pick up his own knife was inevitable--the only choice he had in that situation was *when* he'd say yes. *If* wasn't even a question....While Dean's guilt over his actions in Hell stems from his belief that he started torturing to spare himself, I see it as him giving his Self up--not in the sense that his true Self doesn't have it in him to be dark and cruel and monstrous, but in that Dean's true Self keeps those parts of him in check.)I agree with a lot of this! But I don't think there's a division between Dean's "true self" that keeps those parts of him in check and what happened in hell. I don't think there is a "true self" in this sense. I think everyone eventually breaks under torture (like you said, it's a matter of when rather than if) but since he didn't turn into a demon after he turned to torturing, I don't think picking up the razor was a matter of giving his Self up. I don't think he'd feel the immense guilt afterwards if it had been a matter of negating his
( ... )
Wow--I really like this and I do hope the show goes in this direction. After I watched this episode I got similar feelings that Benny would not play out to be a bad/evil guy--I was hoping it wasn't just a trick to lower our guards because this would be a fresh take for the show to continue with!
I could be like, TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG about this, but this is a trajectory I'm seeing potentially from what we've got going right now, character wise.
God I hope you are right.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 19:04:37 UTC
So, the thing about speculation like this is that it makes so much sense that I become totally convinced it's going to happen, and then the reality is that the show just kinda dances around the idea all season, but generally drops the ball as far as doing anything really satisfying with it. I really hope that's not the case this time
( ... )
God I hope you are right. part deux.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 19:05:42 UTC
One more thing! I'm not sure I have quite the same take on Dean's attitude though.
There’s just no talking to someone who is telling you that your own feelings about your life are not just wrong, but erasing them outright and substituting their own. I really love how that scene contrasts with the scene in late season 1 between Sam and Dean, with a Dean who is much more vulnerable to the idea of Sam leaving because he doesn’t feel he has any control over it. While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything
( ... )
Re: God I hope you are right. part deux.amonitrateNovember 4 2012, 20:22:02 UTC
While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything. First off, yeah, I didn't really get into where Dean's coming from here from his POV, or what's feeding his behavior toward Sam in this. Just that his behavior toward Sam in that particular scene was fucked up in a specific way
( ... )
Re: God I hope you are right. part deux.i_speak_tongueNovember 4 2012, 20:39:18 UTC
Aha! YES. Okay. I totally see it now. Yep. Emotional Blackmail. Ugh. Yes. Oh, Dean. You poor little codependent wreck of a human being. Why do I love you so?
Also, I had a feeling you were aware of all the stuff backgrounding Dean's attitude. Just checking! Hahaha!
Almost every monster on this show didn’t choose what happened to them, and I don’t think the show’s moral universe condemns them for giving in to the overwhelming pressure to kill once they’ve been turned - they’re starved lions rather than it being about moral judgment. But at the same time, once that’s passed, the show is making clear that they can make a choice not to kill. It’s a terrifyingly hard thing to do, but it is possible to change, to choose not to harm. And I think that’s the storyarc they’re going with for Dean this season. It’s not his fault that he had to fight for his life for a year in Purgatory and that it left him this pared of so much of his ability to emphasize with others, including his brother; but at some point it does become his responsibility to re-find that place in himself, no matter how difficult. Because the consequences of not doing that are hurting the one person he loves most in the world, down deep. Oh, wow. So intense and awesome and insightful. Thank you for going into all of that!
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"Benny was there when Dean became that Dean"
Now that is a very interesting observation. I think you are going in the right direction with with this being one of the reasons why Sam isn't connecting with Dean right now.
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I like this speculation a *lot*. Partly because it's something new to explore with Dean: the show's flirted with the idea that he could be monstrous (by paralleling him with Gordon, for one example; Endverse, for another), and shown him get scary in isolated incidents of extremity (hitting Ben while trying to save Lisa, for one example), but it's shied away from giving that part of his character its due with an actual *arc*. (Hell doesn't count, because the story that would give that part of Dean's character its due would require that Dean have a *choice* about his behaviour.) And it flips the usual SPN script of *Sam* being the one who needs to be watched, who needs to be humanised, who needs to be reined in--which, 8 years in, can only be a refreshing change. *g*
And partly I like this spec because of this bit you singled out:
The other scene that struck me between Benny and Dean along these lines is the bit in ( ... )
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(Hell doesn't count, because the story that would give that part of Dean's character its due would require that Dean have a *choice* about his behaviour.)I think it's more complex than Hell not counting. Because I think hell has everything to do with Dean's behavior now, because I don't think you can easily separate Dean being coerced into torturing in hell with Dean torturing in Purgatory, for example. I don't think it's a matter of blame or choice as far as how Dean's reacting right now. I do think that doesn't excuse how he's behaving right now either. Purgatory wasn't about choice for him any more than hell was, I guess is what I'm saying. They were both impossible situations to maintain your full vulnerable humanity in. Dean might have had more agency in Purgatory -- he's not on the rack, for example -- but in a lot of ways he doesn't have much more choice ( ... )
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There’s just no talking to someone who is telling you that your own feelings about your life are not just wrong, but erasing them outright and substituting their own. I really love how that scene contrasts with the scene in late season 1 between Sam and Dean, with a Dean who is much more vulnerable to the idea of Sam leaving because he doesn’t feel he has any control over it. While I agree Dean IS becoming more and more like John, I don't think Dean thinks he can control Sam. I hope this isn't my Dean!girl bias, but I see Dean's attitude towards Sam wanting to quit stemming from those old abandonment issues, along with a not so healthy dose of denial. When he tells sam he's not going to quit hunting, it seems like he's saying it to comfort and convince himself more than anything ( ... )
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Also, I had a feeling you were aware of all the stuff backgrounding Dean's attitude. Just checking! Hahaha!
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Oh, wow. So intense and awesome and insightful. Thank you for going into all of that!
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