Meta: Yukimura, Part 2 Post Two
Too long, had to break it up. Here is the rest:
readerofasaph: Yukimura is an idealistic kind of boy.
thephoenixboy: and in losing, he overcomes that to a certain extent
readerofasaph: (INFJ is my MBTI bet, btw)
readerofasaph: I think he (and Tezuka) are both prone to reading into this whole tennis tournament a whole lot more than what is there.
readerofasaph: And the series as a whole is a lot to do with what these boys read into tennis, what tennis means to them.
readerofasaph: For Sanada it gets subsumed into his whole samurai code.
thephoenixboy: and Tezuka tends towards a similar direction
readerofasaph: Tezuka groks that, being of martial arts background himself.
readerofasaph: I don't think Yamato ever understood the kind of impact he eventually made on Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: *thinks*
aiwritingfic: grok?
readerofasaph: It seems like at the beginning Tezuka was a lot like Echizen, wielding his tennis as a weapon in order to take arrogant people down a peg or two.
aiwritingfic: i don't think so.
thephoenixboy: I'm going to argue this one
aiwritingfic: same.
readerofasaph: (at the tennis club with the Seigaku people.)
aiwritingfic: he didn't show it off, and he didn't let other people know just how well he could play.
aiwritingfic: after all he played with his right.
thephoenixboy: going so far as to pretend to be weaker than he was
aiwritingfic: and the seniors discovered this.
aiwritingfic: YES.
readerofasaph: Playing with your right hand? I'd be angry too.
aiwritingfic: but _why_ did he do it?
thephoenixboy: tezuka's hiding his skill rather than showing it off
readerofasaph: And deliberately challenging the winners of a tennis tournament.
aiwritingfic: not to take people down.
aiwritingfic: but to _protect_ them.
aiwritingfic: and their egos.
readerofasaph: I read it as a sign of disrespect, really.
thephoenixboy: who says tezuka did the challenging?
aiwritingfic: i'm with phoenix.
aiwritingfic: it's not said who challenged who
thephoenixboy: if Tezuka was standing around looking bored (as he does), Sanada could well have challenged him
aiwritingfic: he could certainly have looked disdainful XD
aiwritingfic: he does have that sour look on his face sometimes
readerofasaph: mmm. okay, point conceded.
thephoenixboy: also, they're playing in a school club - these are training matches not competition matches. The idea is to play in order to improve. If he destroys the opposition, they won't learn from it
thephoenixboy: maybe not the most tactful thing he could have done, but 12 yr old boys rarely are
aiwritingfic: he thought he was doing it right.
aiwritingfic: and respecting his senpai by not beating them handily
aiwritingfic: instead he was disrespecting them by being good enough to HIDE it.
thephoenixboy: ok, we've detoured to tezuka (again)
aiwritingfic: (*laughs* sorry lynn. you have two tez-defenders in this chat, so we tend to gravitate.)
readerofasaph: :P okay.
thephoenixboy: so what's yukimura chanelling his tennis into, because he strikes me as different
aiwritingfic: pre or post nationals?
thephoenixboy: pre
aiwritingfic: actually, i have THREE stages for yukimura.
readerofasaph: I'm not willing to label Tezuka as clueless in order to label him as non-culpable, unfortunately.
aiwritingfic: pre-nationals/pre-GB. pre-nationals/post-GB. and post both.
aiwritingfic: lynn--can we save the tez for later? or would you like to hash it out now?
aiwritingfic: *perfectly willing either way*
thephoenixboy: ok *restrains self from arguin the yamato point*
readerofasaph: I guess I was going to move on from the Yamato point.
thephoenixboy: ok ^_^
readerofasaph: Just cause Tezuka proceeded to stake like the rest of his possible tennis career on one phrase that an old captain said to him.
thephoenixboy: *pulls out headcanon*
aiwritingfic: lynn: what do you mean? *needs details*
aiwritingfic: i _think_ i know what you mean, but i don't quite get the point.
thephoenixboy: and I'm not sure that he does - I think it's also the idea of oishi quitting because of him
readerofasaph: Well, mainly the Atobe match.
aiwritingfic: go on
readerofasaph: But the Sanada match too.
aiwritingfic: i tie that into his martyr complex.
readerofasaph: And Tezuka being like, "I want to turn pro - so I am going to totally risk my arm in order to do this."
thephoenixboy: that's not necessarily for the team, whatever he says
aiwritingfic: he's an attention whore.
aiwritingfic: but at the same time he doesn't want to be seen as one.
aiwritingfic: so how does one get attention while seemingly not want it?
readerofasaph: You can either take it as calculating!Tezuka: "If I'm not good enough to win at this level I shouldn't be going pro anyway."
thephoenixboy: the hyotei match isn't riding on him necessarily - presumably he knows that it would go to the reserves if he lost. His loss =/= team loss
aiwritingfic: what's the point we're trying to make here?
readerofasaph: Yeah, but it's definitely a persistent, persistent fiction in his head.
thephoenixboy: in oishi's head
readerofasaph: Well, no. Unless Fuji's hallucinating the giant Seigaku flag on Tezuka's background as well.
readerofasaph: (have no manga here to back this up right no, unfortunately.)
aiwritingfic: so what's your point, lynn? *isn't quite getting where this is going*
aiwritingfic: plain language needed when it nears 2am for me
readerofasaph: The question is, what fiction does /Yukimura/ have in his head?
readerofasaph: What is he reading into tennis that isn't there?
aiwritingfic: ah
aiwritingfic: (thank you)
readerofasaph: Because there's definitely something there that's keeping him from achieving that Ten-whatchamayoucallit-ULTIMATE Muga thing.
readerofasaph: (spoilers for national finals. Not that there's anything to spoil.)
aiwritingfic: *sits this one out, cannot say anything because she hasn't read anything past 353 and will not analyze unless people want _pre_353*
thephoenixboy: who says yukimura hasn't reached the pinnacle of perfection?
thephoenixboy: we don't know anything about his muga
thephoenixboy: except that he doesn't use it *a little confused by this*
readerofasaph: He has no physical reserve at all.
readerofasaph: Much less any to waste on a match.
aiwritingfic: isn't that the GB?
thephoenixboy: prior to GB, though
readerofasaph: I'd wonder whether his own technique, the sense-stealing thing or whatever it is, is actually a form of the Muga.
thephoenixboy: the Muga which can do anything *resigned*
readerofasaph: Certainly there is no known law of logic that would explain it.
aiwritingfic: (did this muga show up in a match?)
readerofasaph: It's like HxH nen!
readerofasaph: (it is getting easier and easier to write a Tenipuri/HxH crossover.)
thephoenixboy: I was reading his sense-stealing thing as more a metaphor for the feeling of hopelessness that comes when you're playing someone ridiculously good that you can't imagine beating
readerofasaph: Yeah, but that would make SENSE.
thephoenixboy: ie what kin-chan was saying
thephoenixboy: I'm trying to make sense - it's just tricky
aiwritingfic: XD did i not say we're trying to make order out of chaos here?
thephoenixboy: and he didn't have a glowy aura thing in the match
readerofasaph: true dat.
readerofasaph: but it's not like we have ANYTHING to go on here.
thephoenixboy: I have a thought
thephoenixboy: we know yukimura has muga
readerofasaph: All we know is that he's ruthlessly pragmatic - even Echizen acknowledges that.
readerofasaph: Yes?
thephoenixboy: we know that it isn't pinnacle of hard work - the implication in the match against echizen being that that relies on tezuka's zone
thephoenixboy: and PoHW > entry level muga
thephoenixboy: so if yukimura only had entry level muga (like sanada), wouldn't tezuka have beaten him in 353?
aiwritingfic: you assume they had muga pre-jr high.
thephoenixboy: http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/353/04/
readerofasaph: But canonically Tezuka has not been able to use his glowy arm for three years.
thephoenixboy: the glowy thing around his arm is there
aiwritingfic: i mean yuki
readerofasaph: So clearly he had it at the /beginning/ of junior high at the latest.
aiwritingfic: no wait
aiwritingfic: you're right
aiwritingfic: *backtracks* right.
aiwritingfic: too young, then.
aiwritingfic: we can't see if yuki has muga.
thephoenixboy: not as far as I can see
thephoenixboy: but he certainly has it by 2nd year nationals
aiwritingfic: either tezuka was holding his own against yukimura _because_ tez had muga. or yuki was using muga too, and the art's not showing it.
aiwritingfic: also, i wouldn't say muga was entry-level or not.
thephoenixboy: mm?
aiwritingfic: it's how one uses it.
thephoenixboy: if you think about the chitose match
readerofasaph: /nod/ I agree.
aiwritingfic: and at that age, how well can you use a superweapon like that, mentally/strategically?
thephoenixboy: *points at national tournament*
thephoenixboy: the chitose-tezuka match, say
aiwritingfic: dearest, i'm talking about the pre-jr-high match.
readerofasaph: Either way, it's interesting how Yukimura and Sanada basically stand there and watch Echizen do his worst.
aiwritingfic: your question was,
aiwritingfic: "if yukimura only had entry level muga (like sanada), wouldn't tezuka have beaten him in 353?"
aiwritingfic: and my answer is, "you can't say higher muga = win because other factors come into play too."
readerofasaph: In one of my old fics I had a scene where Sanada was basically scared to use the Muga because of loss of control and Yukimra basically had to provoke him into it.
thephoenixboy: but if you can't assume instant mastery, why does tezuka with two doors open beat chitose (experienced with 2nd door) with only door 2?
aiwritingfic: i don't remember this fic, lynn
readerofasaph: But I'm wondering whether the fear of loss of control is common to the entire Troika.
thephoenixboy: I do
aiwritingfic: phoenix: you want to rephrase that? *lost*
thephoenixboy: the tezuka-chitose match
aiwritingfic: yes. "why does tezuka with two doors open beat chitose (experienced with 2nd door) with only door 2?"
aiwritingfic: sounds to me like tezuka has two doors, chitose only has one.
thephoenixboy: to start off with, tezuka has his hard work door open and chitose has his great wisdom door. Chitose is destroying Tezuka
readerofasaph: Or whether this fear of loss of control is just new to Yukimura.
thephoenixboy: then Tezuka opens that door as well and suddenly he is beating Chitose, despite never having used it before
aiwritingfic: muga vs muga = can't assume one is better than the other.
readerofasaph: (this whole doors thing is where I concede that PoT needed to be a fighting manga)
aiwritingfic: but two mugas vs one muga?
aiwritingfic: please.
thephoenixboy: I'm just quoting canon
readerofasaph: ...either way, does it matter what the technique is? Shiraishi (and Yuki) are saying, "The winner wins."
aiwritingfic: yeah, no, i know. i mean, i see the logic. even with imperfect understanding of the second door, it's enough to give tezuka the edge over chitose.
readerofasaph: *sits there and wails* THIS IS A TENNIS MANGA.
aiwritingfic: *giggles*
aiwritingfic: i hadn't noticed <3
thephoenixboy: *sighs*
readerofasaph: There are clearly players in the series (i.e Chitose) whose fictional concept of tennis is that it's a martial arts path to Enlightenment.
readerofasaph: But I'm not sure Yuki or Tezu would buy into that.
thephoenixboy: and isn't that where the name comes from?
thephoenixboy: muga no kyouchi?
readerofasaph: yeah, yeah. /grumble/
aiwritingfic: *laughing*
aiwritingfic: okay, is this conversation moving on?
thephoenixboy: yes?
aiwritingfic: new point to argue then
aiwritingfic: anyone?
readerofasaph: I was reading through old meta in order to find stuff on Yuki.
aiwritingfic: <3
thephoenixboy: not much around, that I could find
aiwritingfic: we'll have to do canon analysis. *excited*
aiwritingfic: i prefer that.
readerofasaph: Instead, I found like a several thousand word essay by me titled 'Why I Do Not Like Tezuka'
aiwritingfic: i'd rather take raw material and pull things out.
thephoenixboy: oooh dear
aiwritingfic: XD lynn, are you TRYING to make me go off on tezuka?
thephoenixboy: it won't work if you are
readerofasaph: XD no. I don't particularly like Tezuka. But he /is/ interesting.
aiwritingfic: oh, not that intepretation of "go off"
aiwritingfic: but more like "start talking and never stop"
readerofasaph: I don't particularly like Yuki either.
thephoenixboy: you like logic?
readerofasaph: Or at least, not in the scale of 'highest being Kiri and lowest being, I don't know, Horio's sidekicks?'
thephoenixboy: XD
aiwritingfic: XDDDDDDDDDDD
readerofasaph: but Tez and Yuki are probably two of the more interesting manga characters.
readerofasaph: to talk about.
readerofasaph: (not that either of them holds a candle to Sanada, of course.)
thephoenixboy: there are more questions about them
aiwritingfic: let's talk subrosa
thephoenixboy: less from their pov, if nothing else
thephoenixboy: ok
thephoenixboy: ok
aiwritingfic: i want to know theories etc, and people's interests in what happens post-canon.
thephoenixboy: hence the theme, hm?
aiwritingfic: and since subrosa is post-canon, this-- yes, exactly.
aiwritingfic: why do you think i run themes?
aiwritingfic: ^_^
readerofasaph: http://assyrian.livejournal.com/24993.html#cutid1
aiwritingfic: *tries to nudge people in her direction*
readerofasaph: old thoughts on yuki-muse. also kiri. not that anyone cares about kiri these days.
aiwritingfic: ah, thank you. it's saved in the chatlog now.
thephoenixboy: mm, I come down slightly differently on a few things
readerofasaph: which ones?
thephoenixboy: manipulative - where does that come up in canon?
readerofasaph: (you probably have about a hundred chapters of canon the advantage on me, admittedly)
thephoenixboy: (but you're the rikkai writer and I dabble ^_^)
readerofasaph: Not in a horrible way.
readerofasaph: More in a 'I can get people to follow me kind of way'.
readerofasaph: Whereas with Tezuka it's more of a 'People follow me anyway'.
thephoenixboy: I tend to think of that as more an unconscious thing
readerofasaph: No, that's Tezuka.
readerofasaph: Rikkai has too much of a consciously conscious group dynamic.
readerofasaph: And that's partly Sanada, but secretly I think it's Yukimura.
readerofasaph: (And yeah. Post-Nationals? I honestly don't see a future in tennis for Yuki.)
thephoenixboy: I also tend to have him unintentionally tactless rather than deliberately
thephoenixboy: *is failing at explaining the other point*
readerofasaph: Yukimura, unintentionally tactless? No way.
thephoenixboy: there's a few lines *goes digging*
thephoenixboy: but at the same time, you never see him being particularly tactful either
readerofasaph: no, but the few lines in which he teases Sanada and Jackal etc (and again, I can't find the canon backup), I think he was /quite/ deliberately teasing.
thephoenixboy: in the rikkai questions?
readerofasaph: yeah.
thephoenixboy: http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/223/20/
readerofasaph: yeah, definitely Yukimura egging Sanada on.
thephoenixboy: if you have him as consciously the leader, then he knows they can't really tease back, which makes it less teasing and more tactless
readerofasaph: not if the person you are teasing is effectively your best friend.
readerofasaph: or at least best friend enough to SLAP you.
thephoenixboy: once
readerofasaph: but he did it. And Seiichi appreciated it. Oh dear.
thephoenixboy: but why the 'total silence'?
thephoenixboy: XD
readerofasaph: Er, because it's a loaded issue?
thephoenixboy: and the laugh?
readerofasaph: And nobody wants Sanada to kill them?
thephoenixboy: *laughs*
readerofasaph: It definitely looks more like it's meant to be a humorous situation, with poor Sanada's pride as the victim.
readerofasaph: And I think Yuki knows /exactly/ how much he can get away with.
thephoenixboy: mm
thephoenixboy: *goes looking for another example*
thephoenixboy: he doesn't say much in canon, does he?
readerofasaph: ( And Ai: I'm not sure if Tezuka's heart really lies in tennis either. The very fact that he can /see/ the problem in Ryoma's tennis makes me wonder if he has the disposition for it.)
aiwritingfic: if he has the disposition for it. <-- you mean Tezuka?
readerofasaph: yeah. Tezuka.
readerofasaph: Ryoma has the disposition for it, I think. Professional tennis.
aiwritingfic: so, to be utterly weird/selfish/random, does the fact that i can beta/edit mean i may not have the disposition for writing?
thephoenixboy: no
readerofasaph: Kiri has the disposition, but possibly not the raw talent.
thephoenixboy: I've wondered if Tezuka is too team-centric
readerofasaph: Yeah. it's his 'fictional basis for playing tennis'
readerofasaph: Whereas beta/editing is really the same activity as writing.
thephoenixboy: Echizen is an individual, even within the team
readerofasaph: Ryoma plays for himself.
thephoenixboy: even when he isn't there, Tezuka needs to be in the centre of the team to feel comfortable
aiwritingfic: i certainly think tezuka doesn't quite possess the drive to gain as an individual to the extent of excluding others.
thephoenixboy: or his playing for miyuki
aiwritingfic: he needs to feel he's _giving_./
aiwritingfic: and in pro tennis, there isn't such a thing.
thephoenixboy: his motivation for himself isn't sufficient - he needs other people to focus on
thephoenixboy: do we think yukimura has sufficient drive?
readerofasaph: the thrill of the fight, yes, but he almost needs an opponent like Sanada to draw his tennis out of him.
readerofasaph: Yukimura? Simply has too many interesting things in life to end up being a professional tennis player.
aiwritingfic: yukimura would not be pro on his own.
thephoenixboy: but he might if he took tezuka with him?
readerofasaph: Like attending art school and cameo-ing on Honey and Clover, or something.
aiwritingfic: he might be one of a _stable_
aiwritingfic: lynn--the H&C was random XD
thephoenixboy: and then they could focus on each other - an eternal rivals thing?
aiwritingfic: certainly tezuka and yukimura are similar in the way they need others.
aiwritingfic: if left to their own devices? tennis would be fun, but that would be it.
readerofasaph: lol. I don't know if Yukimura has the sort of straightforwardness that Sanada has, that draws Tezuka out.
thephoenixboy: but if they had each other? *filing bunnies*
aiwritingfic: no.
aiwritingfic: sorry phoenix, i'm going to say no.
thephoenixboy: Yukimura's 'the ball doesn't disappear' and the like is pretty straightforward
thephoenixboy: he plays tennis as tennis, at least to start off with
aiwritingfic: to them, it's tennis.
aiwritingfic: _just_ tennis.
readerofasaph: mm. but that's more of an ability to analyse. it's not purity of heart.
aiwritingfic: it's not OMGTENNIS.
aiwritingfic: and if it was tezuka and yukimura?
aiwritingfic: they'd be more interested in what the other REALLY wanted.
aiwritingfic: let me explain.
aiwritingfic: with sanada and tezuka, it's quite clear sanada needs to overcome tezuka.
thephoenixboy: yes, sanada's a linear sort of person
aiwritingfic: and tezuka lets him have what he wants. NO, i don't mean he loses on purpose. i mean, he fights sanada the way he does because SANADA needs that fight.
aiwritingfic: tezuka is doing that for sanada.
aiwritingfic: (subconsciously.)
thephoenixboy: hmmm
readerofasaph: So in the end, the world revolves around Sanada?
aiwritingfic: XD NO.
aiwritingfic: i haven't finished.
readerofasaph: Because Yukimura lets him have that fight because Sanada needs that fight.
aiwritingfic: now, with tezuka and yukimura.
aiwritingfic: they wouldn't push.
aiwritingfic: they'd enjoy the game.
aiwritingfic: no stakes.
readerofasaph: No, stakes are everything.
aiwritingfic: maybe "aha, i won this time", but not driving to win.
readerofasaph: Too much personal pride.
aiwritingfic: not the "i'm your better" sort of win.
thephoenixboy: no, they'd have stakes
readerofasaph: Just not the whole 'warrior' code that Sanada has.
thephoenixboy: certainly the 'going for a higher level' stakes, at the least
aiwritingfic: i can see it being an akihika sort of thing.
aiwritingfic: but in the touya kouyou/sai way.
readerofasaph: Tezuka REALLY REALLY REALLY hates to lose.
aiwritingfic: not the "let's go pro" way
aiwritingfic: but the "we're playing to perfect our game" way.
readerofasaph: I think Tezuka would have a lot of trouble getting comfortable around Yukimura.
thephoenixboy: certainly the game is more important than the prize money, or whatever
aiwritingfic: off the tennis courts, lynn?
thephoenixboy: but it's under pressure like in a tournament that your best game comes out - that's why people enter tournaments for training (like Queens is a warm-up for Wimbledon)
aiwritingfic: i certainly think your yukimura (as seen in femininity) would make tezuka uncomfortable.
readerofasaph: More layered than some fanfic seems to assume, but they don't hide themselves.
aiwritingfic: phoenix: they're beyond that.
thephoenixboy: why?
thephoenixboy: Federer, Nadal - they all play these tournaments
aiwritingfic: they know they're without peer. the only others left to measure themselves against? each other. why bother going pro and bothering with others outside? let those others come to them.
thephoenixboy: why are Tezuka and Yukimura mentally stronger
aiwritingfic: phoenix: they have to, that's how they earn their living.
thephoenixboy: XD
thephoenixboy: XD
thephoenixboy: they could earn their living just playing grand slam tournaments - that's the sort of money they make
thephoenixboy: Queen's is a -tiny- tournament, relatively speaking, and yet a lot of top players do it
aiwritingfic: you're equating tezuka and yukimura with federer and nadal.
aiwritingfic: yet they don't share the same personalities
aiwritingfic: so i think that's like comparing apples and oranges.
thephoenixboy: comparing, at any rate. I could pick different pros easily
readerofasaph: tez and yuki wouldn't go pro to begin with, I think.
thephoenixboy: yes, but even so
aiwritingfic: i agree with lynn
readerofasaph: and I think if Yukimura could go pro now, he wouldn't go for Tezuka anymore.
readerofasaph: why would you, when there's Echizen?
thephoenixboy: stupid illogical brat
aiwritingfic: *laughing* he does throw a spanner in a lot of works.
thephoenixboy: what Echizen lacks at the beginning is the competitive edge
readerofasaph: (who? Echizen, or Yukimura?)
thephoenixboy: Echizen
readerofasaph: mmm. well, it's partly because he didn't see anyone as worth beating outside Nanjirou.
thephoenixboy: and Tezuka changes that - gives him another target
readerofasaph: Which is kinda fair enough. You wouldn't see anyone as worth beating if your dad was Federer.
thephoenixboy: he gets a competitive edge
thephoenixboy: like Fuji after he plays Kirihara
aiwritingfic: you know, Konomi puts tezuka down as wanting to go pro.
thephoenixboy: I know
readerofasaph: Yeah. I wonder whether the Fuji thing is all about 'risk' though.
aiwritingfic: i wonder if tezuka is doing that because of some other people. as in, not for himself.
aiwritingfic: or if that really is what tezuka wants.
readerofasaph: "I won't play to the limits of my ability because if I lose it's not a real loss."
readerofasaph: I think the love of tennis is really there.
thephoenixboy: I think Fuji would lose as many practice matches as he wanted, but losing a competitive singles match is something compeltely different
aiwritingfic: Seems like we've moved onto Fuji?
readerofasaph: oh dear. no fuji.
thephoenixboy: I'm struggling to make my comparisons
readerofasaph: Unless it's about Shiraishi, who is <<<3333.
aiwritingfic: *laugh* okay, no fuji.
aiwritingfic: i don't know ANYTHING about shiraishi.
readerofasaph: Chitose and Shiraishi are awesome.
readerofasaph: Kenya is kind-of boring, unfortunately.
aiwritingfic: i'd like to write koharu/yuuji
aiwritingfic: sadly, my brain does not work that way.
thephoenixboy: my brain doesn't go for shitenhouji
thephoenixboy: I'm stuck in Seigaku for now
aiwritingfic: pity. according to branch, kintarou was originally supposed to be the protagonist.
thephoenixboy: that was interesting
aiwritingfic: certainly kintarou's the more typical hero-type for shounen manga.
thephoenixboy: because kintarou wants to win, but he lacks the discipline which we otherwise associate with the top players
readerofasaph: yeah, and as i pointed out. Kintarou as protagonist would completely phail next to Gon Freecs of HxH.
thephoenixboy: XD
readerofasaph: Because Togashi actually knows how to do character development!
thephoenixboy: too right
aiwritingfic: XD <3 i think that making echizen the protagonist was a good choice, to be honest.
aiwritingfic: not that he's a good protagonist.
thephoenixboy: because then we get lots of Seigaku and we can ignore Echizen ^_^
aiwritingfic: but because of echizen-- gah, you keep finishing my thoughts. *laughing*
readerofasaph: I'm trying to remember when I still liked Seigaku.
thephoenixboy: I liked them from episode 4
readerofasaph: And back when I actually wanted Echizen to win.
thephoenixboy: I never did that
aiwritingfic: I always rooted for Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: and I was hooked when yamato turned up
readerofasaph: I think that period ended in chapter 19 when Kiri showed up.
aiwritingfic: For me it was (and still is) all about Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: Tezuka and Yamato are hard to separate, for me
readerofasaph: At least you didn't have to wait one hundred chapters for your next sight of your favourite character. /mourns/
thephoenixboy: Yamato only shows up twice total
aiwritingfic: ^_^ No, but I had to suffer through a long period in which there was no Tezuka because he was away.
readerofasaph: Tezuka still plays for Yamato.
readerofasaph: At least your favourite character was not BUTCHERED in the Rikkai finals.
aiwritingfic: And I was reduced to being pathetic and going "squee" whenever they so much as _said_ his name.
readerofasaph: It made the anime version of Kirihara look like brilliant development.
aiwritingfic: XD no, you're right, tezuka was treated fairly.
aiwritingfic: and that means i don't hate konomi.
thephoenixboy: Kirihara went backwards
aiwritingfic: (though i feel bad that tezuka lost like that.)
thephoenixboy: which is just weird
readerofasaph: Yeah well. I'm clinging to Sanada because at least he remains a coherent and interesting character throughout.
thephoenixboy: yes
aiwritingfic: sanada is basically an old man in a teenager's body.
thephoenixboy: Yamato does that too - he's not around enough to butcher
readerofasaph: Yukimura is just all shadow and illusion, just like his techniques.
readerofasaph: But Sanada is really naive, in some ways.
aiwritingfic: too old-fashioned.
aiwritingfic: easy to predict.
thephoenixboy: 'if I put in enough work, I will win'
readerofasaph: But very real. very solid. Very reassuring.
aiwritingfic: *nods* yes. <3
aiwritingfic: *wants to marry one*
thephoenixboy: like the mountain
readerofasaph: (One day, Ai, I will actually try and convince you of the similarities to Miles Edgeworth.)
aiwritingfic: Sanada = Miles Edgeworth?
readerofasaph: Not =.
aiwritingfic: oh. if we're talking similarities, you don't have to try.
aiwritingfic: i can see them
readerofasaph: But the aura and the internal feel are startlingly similar.
readerofasaph: Who wanted to play PW without Edgeworth?
readerofasaph: Yeah. And Yuki clings to Sanada so.
readerofasaph: "I told you not to talk to me about tennis!"
thephoenixboy: he needs Sanada to be solid
readerofasaph: Which is quite interesting, since it implies a whole different level of communication they have with each other.
aiwritingfic: where's that line from?
readerofasaph: Since as captain and vice-captain they only /can/ talk to each other about tennis.
thephoenixboy: flashback during the s1 match?
aiwritingfic: ah. *sits this out again*
thephoenixboy: I think, anyway
thephoenixboy: would take me a while to dig out
readerofasaph: yeah.
readerofasaph: second-last chapter.
aiwritingfic: i'm about to bow out. dying of the sleep-related variety.
readerofasaph: second-last chapter.
aiwritingfic: calling it a day?
thephoenixboy: aww
thephoenixboy: ok
readerofasaph: well, it's late.
aiwritingfic: are you two continuing this?
thephoenixboy: my last exam is tomorrow - after that I'm free whenver you feel like talking
aiwritingfic: (it's early, 3am)
readerofasaph: yeah well, you know what i mean.
aiwritingfic: we'll see if i still wake at 6.
thephoenixboy: please don't
aiwritingfic: i blame the nap i had th is afternoon.
aiwritingfic: k, well anyway.
readerofasaph: 'night.
thephoenixboy: night night
readerofasaph: thanks for inviting me!
aiwritingfic: heading off <3 if there is more pot analysis let me know
thephoenixboy: twas fun ^_^
readerofasaph: it's been ages since I've meta-ed anything.
thephoenixboy: there needs to be more PoT meta
aiwritingfic: and welcome--it was great to have someone who's not completely seigaku-focused!
readerofasaph: Yukimura is an idealistic kind of boy.
thephoenixboy: and in losing, he overcomes that to a certain extent
readerofasaph: (INFJ is my MBTI bet, btw)
readerofasaph: I think he (and Tezuka) are both prone to reading into this whole tennis tournament a whole lot more than what is there.
readerofasaph: And the series as a whole is a lot to do with what these boys read into tennis, what tennis means to them.
readerofasaph: For Sanada it gets subsumed into his whole samurai code.
thephoenixboy: and Tezuka tends towards a similar direction
readerofasaph: Tezuka groks that, being of martial arts background himself.
readerofasaph: I don't think Yamato ever understood the kind of impact he eventually made on Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: *thinks*
aiwritingfic: grok?
readerofasaph: It seems like at the beginning Tezuka was a lot like Echizen, wielding his tennis as a weapon in order to take arrogant people down a peg or two.
aiwritingfic: i don't think so.
thephoenixboy: I'm going to argue this one
aiwritingfic: same.
readerofasaph: (at the tennis club with the Seigaku people.)
aiwritingfic: he didn't show it off, and he didn't let other people know just how well he could play.
aiwritingfic: after all he played with his right.
thephoenixboy: going so far as to pretend to be weaker than he was
aiwritingfic: and the seniors discovered this.
aiwritingfic: YES.
readerofasaph: Playing with your right hand? I'd be angry too.
aiwritingfic: but _why_ did he do it?
thephoenixboy: tezuka's hiding his skill rather than showing it off
readerofasaph: And deliberately challenging the winners of a tennis tournament.
aiwritingfic: not to take people down.
aiwritingfic: but to _protect_ them.
aiwritingfic: and their egos.
readerofasaph: I read it as a sign of disrespect, really.
thephoenixboy: who says tezuka did the challenging?
aiwritingfic: i'm with phoenix.
aiwritingfic: it's not said who challenged who
thephoenixboy: if Tezuka was standing around looking bored (as he does), Sanada could well have challenged him
aiwritingfic: he could certainly have looked disdainful XD
aiwritingfic: he does have that sour look on his face sometimes
readerofasaph: mmm. okay, point conceded.
thephoenixboy: also, they're playing in a school club - these are training matches not competition matches. The idea is to play in order to improve. If he destroys the opposition, they won't learn from it
thephoenixboy: maybe not the most tactful thing he could have done, but 12 yr old boys rarely are
aiwritingfic: he thought he was doing it right.
aiwritingfic: and respecting his senpai by not beating them handily
aiwritingfic: instead he was disrespecting them by being good enough to HIDE it.
thephoenixboy: ok, we've detoured to tezuka (again)
aiwritingfic: (*laughs* sorry lynn. you have two tez-defenders in this chat, so we tend to gravitate.)
readerofasaph: :P okay.
thephoenixboy: so what's yukimura chanelling his tennis into, because he strikes me as different
aiwritingfic: pre or post nationals?
thephoenixboy: pre
aiwritingfic: actually, i have THREE stages for yukimura.
readerofasaph: I'm not willing to label Tezuka as clueless in order to label him as non-culpable, unfortunately.
aiwritingfic: pre-nationals/pre-GB. pre-nationals/post-GB. and post both.
aiwritingfic: lynn--can we save the tez for later? or would you like to hash it out now?
aiwritingfic: *perfectly willing either way*
thephoenixboy: ok *restrains self from arguin the yamato point*
readerofasaph: I guess I was going to move on from the Yamato point.
thephoenixboy: ok ^_^
readerofasaph: Just cause Tezuka proceeded to stake like the rest of his possible tennis career on one phrase that an old captain said to him.
thephoenixboy: *pulls out headcanon*
aiwritingfic: lynn: what do you mean? *needs details*
aiwritingfic: i _think_ i know what you mean, but i don't quite get the point.
thephoenixboy: and I'm not sure that he does - I think it's also the idea of oishi quitting because of him
readerofasaph: Well, mainly the Atobe match.
aiwritingfic: go on
readerofasaph: But the Sanada match too.
aiwritingfic: i tie that into his martyr complex.
readerofasaph: And Tezuka being like, "I want to turn pro - so I am going to totally risk my arm in order to do this."
thephoenixboy: that's not necessarily for the team, whatever he says
aiwritingfic: he's an attention whore.
aiwritingfic: but at the same time he doesn't want to be seen as one.
aiwritingfic: so how does one get attention while seemingly not want it?
readerofasaph: You can either take it as calculating!Tezuka: "If I'm not good enough to win at this level I shouldn't be going pro anyway."
thephoenixboy: the hyotei match isn't riding on him necessarily - presumably he knows that it would go to the reserves if he lost. His loss =/= team loss
aiwritingfic: what's the point we're trying to make here?
readerofasaph: Yeah, but it's definitely a persistent, persistent fiction in his head.
thephoenixboy: in oishi's head
readerofasaph: Well, no. Unless Fuji's hallucinating the giant Seigaku flag on Tezuka's background as well.
readerofasaph: (have no manga here to back this up right no, unfortunately.)
aiwritingfic: so what's your point, lynn? *isn't quite getting where this is going*
aiwritingfic: plain language needed when it nears 2am for me
readerofasaph: The question is, what fiction does /Yukimura/ have in his head?
readerofasaph: What is he reading into tennis that isn't there?
aiwritingfic: ah
aiwritingfic: (thank you)
readerofasaph: Because there's definitely something there that's keeping him from achieving that Ten-whatchamayoucallit-ULTIMATE Muga thing.
readerofasaph: (spoilers for national finals. Not that there's anything to spoil.)
aiwritingfic: *sits this one out, cannot say anything because she hasn't read anything past 353 and will not analyze unless people want _pre_353*
thephoenixboy: who says yukimura hasn't reached the pinnacle of perfection?
thephoenixboy: we don't know anything about his muga
thephoenixboy: except that he doesn't use it *a little confused by this*
readerofasaph: He has no physical reserve at all.
readerofasaph: Much less any to waste on a match.
aiwritingfic: isn't that the GB?
thephoenixboy: prior to GB, though
readerofasaph: I'd wonder whether his own technique, the sense-stealing thing or whatever it is, is actually a form of the Muga.
thephoenixboy: the Muga which can do anything *resigned*
readerofasaph: Certainly there is no known law of logic that would explain it.
aiwritingfic: (did this muga show up in a match?)
readerofasaph: It's like HxH nen!
readerofasaph: (it is getting easier and easier to write a Tenipuri/HxH crossover.)
thephoenixboy: I was reading his sense-stealing thing as more a metaphor for the feeling of hopelessness that comes when you're playing someone ridiculously good that you can't imagine beating
readerofasaph: Yeah, but that would make SENSE.
thephoenixboy: ie what kin-chan was saying
thephoenixboy: I'm trying to make sense - it's just tricky
aiwritingfic: XD did i not say we're trying to make order out of chaos here?
thephoenixboy: and he didn't have a glowy aura thing in the match
readerofasaph: true dat.
readerofasaph: but it's not like we have ANYTHING to go on here.
thephoenixboy: I have a thought
thephoenixboy: we know yukimura has muga
readerofasaph: All we know is that he's ruthlessly pragmatic - even Echizen acknowledges that.
readerofasaph: Yes?
thephoenixboy: we know that it isn't pinnacle of hard work - the implication in the match against echizen being that that relies on tezuka's zone
thephoenixboy: and PoHW > entry level muga
thephoenixboy: so if yukimura only had entry level muga (like sanada), wouldn't tezuka have beaten him in 353?
aiwritingfic: you assume they had muga pre-jr high.
thephoenixboy: http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/353/04/
readerofasaph: But canonically Tezuka has not been able to use his glowy arm for three years.
thephoenixboy: the glowy thing around his arm is there
aiwritingfic: i mean yuki
readerofasaph: So clearly he had it at the /beginning/ of junior high at the latest.
aiwritingfic: no wait
aiwritingfic: you're right
aiwritingfic: *backtracks* right.
aiwritingfic: too young, then.
aiwritingfic: we can't see if yuki has muga.
thephoenixboy: not as far as I can see
thephoenixboy: but he certainly has it by 2nd year nationals
aiwritingfic: either tezuka was holding his own against yukimura _because_ tez had muga. or yuki was using muga too, and the art's not showing it.
aiwritingfic: also, i wouldn't say muga was entry-level or not.
thephoenixboy: mm?
aiwritingfic: it's how one uses it.
thephoenixboy: if you think about the chitose match
readerofasaph: /nod/ I agree.
aiwritingfic: and at that age, how well can you use a superweapon like that, mentally/strategically?
thephoenixboy: *points at national tournament*
thephoenixboy: the chitose-tezuka match, say
aiwritingfic: dearest, i'm talking about the pre-jr-high match.
readerofasaph: Either way, it's interesting how Yukimura and Sanada basically stand there and watch Echizen do his worst.
aiwritingfic: your question was,
aiwritingfic: "if yukimura only had entry level muga (like sanada), wouldn't tezuka have beaten him in 353?"
aiwritingfic: and my answer is, "you can't say higher muga = win because other factors come into play too."
readerofasaph: In one of my old fics I had a scene where Sanada was basically scared to use the Muga because of loss of control and Yukimra basically had to provoke him into it.
thephoenixboy: but if you can't assume instant mastery, why does tezuka with two doors open beat chitose (experienced with 2nd door) with only door 2?
aiwritingfic: i don't remember this fic, lynn
readerofasaph: But I'm wondering whether the fear of loss of control is common to the entire Troika.
thephoenixboy: I do
aiwritingfic: phoenix: you want to rephrase that? *lost*
thephoenixboy: the tezuka-chitose match
aiwritingfic: yes. "why does tezuka with two doors open beat chitose (experienced with 2nd door) with only door 2?"
aiwritingfic: sounds to me like tezuka has two doors, chitose only has one.
thephoenixboy: to start off with, tezuka has his hard work door open and chitose has his great wisdom door. Chitose is destroying Tezuka
readerofasaph: Or whether this fear of loss of control is just new to Yukimura.
thephoenixboy: then Tezuka opens that door as well and suddenly he is beating Chitose, despite never having used it before
aiwritingfic: muga vs muga = can't assume one is better than the other.
readerofasaph: (this whole doors thing is where I concede that PoT needed to be a fighting manga)
aiwritingfic: but two mugas vs one muga?
aiwritingfic: please.
thephoenixboy: I'm just quoting canon
readerofasaph: ...either way, does it matter what the technique is? Shiraishi (and Yuki) are saying, "The winner wins."
aiwritingfic: yeah, no, i know. i mean, i see the logic. even with imperfect understanding of the second door, it's enough to give tezuka the edge over chitose.
readerofasaph: *sits there and wails* THIS IS A TENNIS MANGA.
aiwritingfic: *giggles*
aiwritingfic: i hadn't noticed <3
thephoenixboy: *sighs*
readerofasaph: There are clearly players in the series (i.e Chitose) whose fictional concept of tennis is that it's a martial arts path to Enlightenment.
readerofasaph: But I'm not sure Yuki or Tezu would buy into that.
thephoenixboy: and isn't that where the name comes from?
thephoenixboy: muga no kyouchi?
readerofasaph: yeah, yeah. /grumble/
aiwritingfic: *laughing*
aiwritingfic: okay, is this conversation moving on?
thephoenixboy: yes?
aiwritingfic: new point to argue then
aiwritingfic: anyone?
readerofasaph: I was reading through old meta in order to find stuff on Yuki.
aiwritingfic: <3
thephoenixboy: not much around, that I could find
aiwritingfic: we'll have to do canon analysis. *excited*
aiwritingfic: i prefer that.
readerofasaph: Instead, I found like a several thousand word essay by me titled 'Why I Do Not Like Tezuka'
aiwritingfic: i'd rather take raw material and pull things out.
thephoenixboy: oooh dear
aiwritingfic: XD lynn, are you TRYING to make me go off on tezuka?
thephoenixboy: it won't work if you are
readerofasaph: XD no. I don't particularly like Tezuka. But he /is/ interesting.
aiwritingfic: oh, not that intepretation of "go off"
aiwritingfic: but more like "start talking and never stop"
readerofasaph: I don't particularly like Yuki either.
thephoenixboy: you like logic?
readerofasaph: Or at least, not in the scale of 'highest being Kiri and lowest being, I don't know, Horio's sidekicks?'
thephoenixboy: XD
aiwritingfic: XDDDDDDDDDDD
readerofasaph: but Tez and Yuki are probably two of the more interesting manga characters.
readerofasaph: to talk about.
readerofasaph: (not that either of them holds a candle to Sanada, of course.)
thephoenixboy: there are more questions about them
aiwritingfic: let's talk subrosa
thephoenixboy: less from their pov, if nothing else
thephoenixboy: ok
thephoenixboy: ok
aiwritingfic: i want to know theories etc, and people's interests in what happens post-canon.
thephoenixboy: hence the theme, hm?
aiwritingfic: and since subrosa is post-canon, this-- yes, exactly.
aiwritingfic: why do you think i run themes?
aiwritingfic: ^_^
readerofasaph: http://assyrian.livejournal.com/24993.html#cutid1
aiwritingfic: *tries to nudge people in her direction*
readerofasaph: old thoughts on yuki-muse. also kiri. not that anyone cares about kiri these days.
aiwritingfic: ah, thank you. it's saved in the chatlog now.
thephoenixboy: mm, I come down slightly differently on a few things
readerofasaph: which ones?
thephoenixboy: manipulative - where does that come up in canon?
readerofasaph: (you probably have about a hundred chapters of canon the advantage on me, admittedly)
thephoenixboy: (but you're the rikkai writer and I dabble ^_^)
readerofasaph: Not in a horrible way.
readerofasaph: More in a 'I can get people to follow me kind of way'.
readerofasaph: Whereas with Tezuka it's more of a 'People follow me anyway'.
thephoenixboy: I tend to think of that as more an unconscious thing
readerofasaph: No, that's Tezuka.
readerofasaph: Rikkai has too much of a consciously conscious group dynamic.
readerofasaph: And that's partly Sanada, but secretly I think it's Yukimura.
readerofasaph: (And yeah. Post-Nationals? I honestly don't see a future in tennis for Yuki.)
thephoenixboy: I also tend to have him unintentionally tactless rather than deliberately
thephoenixboy: *is failing at explaining the other point*
readerofasaph: Yukimura, unintentionally tactless? No way.
thephoenixboy: there's a few lines *goes digging*
thephoenixboy: but at the same time, you never see him being particularly tactful either
readerofasaph: no, but the few lines in which he teases Sanada and Jackal etc (and again, I can't find the canon backup), I think he was /quite/ deliberately teasing.
thephoenixboy: in the rikkai questions?
readerofasaph: yeah.
thephoenixboy: http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/223/20/
readerofasaph: yeah, definitely Yukimura egging Sanada on.
thephoenixboy: if you have him as consciously the leader, then he knows they can't really tease back, which makes it less teasing and more tactless
readerofasaph: not if the person you are teasing is effectively your best friend.
readerofasaph: or at least best friend enough to SLAP you.
thephoenixboy: once
readerofasaph: but he did it. And Seiichi appreciated it. Oh dear.
thephoenixboy: but why the 'total silence'?
thephoenixboy: XD
readerofasaph: Er, because it's a loaded issue?
thephoenixboy: and the laugh?
readerofasaph: And nobody wants Sanada to kill them?
thephoenixboy: *laughs*
readerofasaph: It definitely looks more like it's meant to be a humorous situation, with poor Sanada's pride as the victim.
readerofasaph: And I think Yuki knows /exactly/ how much he can get away with.
thephoenixboy: mm
thephoenixboy: *goes looking for another example*
thephoenixboy: he doesn't say much in canon, does he?
readerofasaph: ( And Ai: I'm not sure if Tezuka's heart really lies in tennis either. The very fact that he can /see/ the problem in Ryoma's tennis makes me wonder if he has the disposition for it.)
aiwritingfic: if he has the disposition for it. <-- you mean Tezuka?
readerofasaph: yeah. Tezuka.
readerofasaph: Ryoma has the disposition for it, I think. Professional tennis.
aiwritingfic: so, to be utterly weird/selfish/random, does the fact that i can beta/edit mean i may not have the disposition for writing?
thephoenixboy: no
readerofasaph: Kiri has the disposition, but possibly not the raw talent.
thephoenixboy: I've wondered if Tezuka is too team-centric
readerofasaph: Yeah. it's his 'fictional basis for playing tennis'
readerofasaph: Whereas beta/editing is really the same activity as writing.
thephoenixboy: Echizen is an individual, even within the team
readerofasaph: Ryoma plays for himself.
thephoenixboy: even when he isn't there, Tezuka needs to be in the centre of the team to feel comfortable
aiwritingfic: i certainly think tezuka doesn't quite possess the drive to gain as an individual to the extent of excluding others.
thephoenixboy: or his playing for miyuki
aiwritingfic: he needs to feel he's _giving_./
aiwritingfic: and in pro tennis, there isn't such a thing.
thephoenixboy: his motivation for himself isn't sufficient - he needs other people to focus on
thephoenixboy: do we think yukimura has sufficient drive?
readerofasaph: the thrill of the fight, yes, but he almost needs an opponent like Sanada to draw his tennis out of him.
readerofasaph: Yukimura? Simply has too many interesting things in life to end up being a professional tennis player.
aiwritingfic: yukimura would not be pro on his own.
thephoenixboy: but he might if he took tezuka with him?
readerofasaph: Like attending art school and cameo-ing on Honey and Clover, or something.
aiwritingfic: he might be one of a _stable_
aiwritingfic: lynn--the H&C was random XD
thephoenixboy: and then they could focus on each other - an eternal rivals thing?
aiwritingfic: certainly tezuka and yukimura are similar in the way they need others.
aiwritingfic: if left to their own devices? tennis would be fun, but that would be it.
readerofasaph: lol. I don't know if Yukimura has the sort of straightforwardness that Sanada has, that draws Tezuka out.
thephoenixboy: but if they had each other? *filing bunnies*
aiwritingfic: no.
aiwritingfic: sorry phoenix, i'm going to say no.
thephoenixboy: Yukimura's 'the ball doesn't disappear' and the like is pretty straightforward
thephoenixboy: he plays tennis as tennis, at least to start off with
aiwritingfic: to them, it's tennis.
aiwritingfic: _just_ tennis.
readerofasaph: mm. but that's more of an ability to analyse. it's not purity of heart.
aiwritingfic: it's not OMGTENNIS.
aiwritingfic: and if it was tezuka and yukimura?
aiwritingfic: they'd be more interested in what the other REALLY wanted.
aiwritingfic: let me explain.
aiwritingfic: with sanada and tezuka, it's quite clear sanada needs to overcome tezuka.
thephoenixboy: yes, sanada's a linear sort of person
aiwritingfic: and tezuka lets him have what he wants. NO, i don't mean he loses on purpose. i mean, he fights sanada the way he does because SANADA needs that fight.
aiwritingfic: tezuka is doing that for sanada.
aiwritingfic: (subconsciously.)
thephoenixboy: hmmm
readerofasaph: So in the end, the world revolves around Sanada?
aiwritingfic: XD NO.
aiwritingfic: i haven't finished.
readerofasaph: Because Yukimura lets him have that fight because Sanada needs that fight.
aiwritingfic: now, with tezuka and yukimura.
aiwritingfic: they wouldn't push.
aiwritingfic: they'd enjoy the game.
aiwritingfic: no stakes.
readerofasaph: No, stakes are everything.
aiwritingfic: maybe "aha, i won this time", but not driving to win.
readerofasaph: Too much personal pride.
aiwritingfic: not the "i'm your better" sort of win.
thephoenixboy: no, they'd have stakes
readerofasaph: Just not the whole 'warrior' code that Sanada has.
thephoenixboy: certainly the 'going for a higher level' stakes, at the least
aiwritingfic: i can see it being an akihika sort of thing.
aiwritingfic: but in the touya kouyou/sai way.
readerofasaph: Tezuka REALLY REALLY REALLY hates to lose.
aiwritingfic: not the "let's go pro" way
aiwritingfic: but the "we're playing to perfect our game" way.
readerofasaph: I think Tezuka would have a lot of trouble getting comfortable around Yukimura.
thephoenixboy: certainly the game is more important than the prize money, or whatever
aiwritingfic: off the tennis courts, lynn?
thephoenixboy: but it's under pressure like in a tournament that your best game comes out - that's why people enter tournaments for training (like Queens is a warm-up for Wimbledon)
aiwritingfic: i certainly think your yukimura (as seen in femininity) would make tezuka uncomfortable.
readerofasaph: More layered than some fanfic seems to assume, but they don't hide themselves.
aiwritingfic: phoenix: they're beyond that.
thephoenixboy: why?
thephoenixboy: Federer, Nadal - they all play these tournaments
aiwritingfic: they know they're without peer. the only others left to measure themselves against? each other. why bother going pro and bothering with others outside? let those others come to them.
thephoenixboy: why are Tezuka and Yukimura mentally stronger
aiwritingfic: phoenix: they have to, that's how they earn their living.
thephoenixboy: XD
thephoenixboy: XD
thephoenixboy: they could earn their living just playing grand slam tournaments - that's the sort of money they make
thephoenixboy: Queen's is a -tiny- tournament, relatively speaking, and yet a lot of top players do it
aiwritingfic: you're equating tezuka and yukimura with federer and nadal.
aiwritingfic: yet they don't share the same personalities
aiwritingfic: so i think that's like comparing apples and oranges.
thephoenixboy: comparing, at any rate. I could pick different pros easily
readerofasaph: tez and yuki wouldn't go pro to begin with, I think.
thephoenixboy: yes, but even so
aiwritingfic: i agree with lynn
readerofasaph: and I think if Yukimura could go pro now, he wouldn't go for Tezuka anymore.
readerofasaph: why would you, when there's Echizen?
thephoenixboy: stupid illogical brat
aiwritingfic: *laughing* he does throw a spanner in a lot of works.
thephoenixboy: what Echizen lacks at the beginning is the competitive edge
readerofasaph: (who? Echizen, or Yukimura?)
thephoenixboy: Echizen
readerofasaph: mmm. well, it's partly because he didn't see anyone as worth beating outside Nanjirou.
thephoenixboy: and Tezuka changes that - gives him another target
readerofasaph: Which is kinda fair enough. You wouldn't see anyone as worth beating if your dad was Federer.
thephoenixboy: he gets a competitive edge
thephoenixboy: like Fuji after he plays Kirihara
aiwritingfic: you know, Konomi puts tezuka down as wanting to go pro.
thephoenixboy: I know
readerofasaph: Yeah. I wonder whether the Fuji thing is all about 'risk' though.
aiwritingfic: i wonder if tezuka is doing that because of some other people. as in, not for himself.
aiwritingfic: or if that really is what tezuka wants.
readerofasaph: "I won't play to the limits of my ability because if I lose it's not a real loss."
readerofasaph: I think the love of tennis is really there.
thephoenixboy: I think Fuji would lose as many practice matches as he wanted, but losing a competitive singles match is something compeltely different
aiwritingfic: Seems like we've moved onto Fuji?
readerofasaph: oh dear. no fuji.
thephoenixboy: I'm struggling to make my comparisons
readerofasaph: Unless it's about Shiraishi, who is <<<3333.
aiwritingfic: *laugh* okay, no fuji.
aiwritingfic: i don't know ANYTHING about shiraishi.
readerofasaph: Chitose and Shiraishi are awesome.
readerofasaph: Kenya is kind-of boring, unfortunately.
aiwritingfic: i'd like to write koharu/yuuji
aiwritingfic: sadly, my brain does not work that way.
thephoenixboy: my brain doesn't go for shitenhouji
thephoenixboy: I'm stuck in Seigaku for now
aiwritingfic: pity. according to branch, kintarou was originally supposed to be the protagonist.
thephoenixboy: that was interesting
aiwritingfic: certainly kintarou's the more typical hero-type for shounen manga.
thephoenixboy: because kintarou wants to win, but he lacks the discipline which we otherwise associate with the top players
readerofasaph: yeah, and as i pointed out. Kintarou as protagonist would completely phail next to Gon Freecs of HxH.
thephoenixboy: XD
readerofasaph: Because Togashi actually knows how to do character development!
thephoenixboy: too right
aiwritingfic: XD <3 i think that making echizen the protagonist was a good choice, to be honest.
aiwritingfic: not that he's a good protagonist.
thephoenixboy: because then we get lots of Seigaku and we can ignore Echizen ^_^
aiwritingfic: but because of echizen-- gah, you keep finishing my thoughts. *laughing*
readerofasaph: I'm trying to remember when I still liked Seigaku.
thephoenixboy: I liked them from episode 4
readerofasaph: And back when I actually wanted Echizen to win.
thephoenixboy: I never did that
aiwritingfic: I always rooted for Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: and I was hooked when yamato turned up
readerofasaph: I think that period ended in chapter 19 when Kiri showed up.
aiwritingfic: For me it was (and still is) all about Tezuka.
thephoenixboy: Tezuka and Yamato are hard to separate, for me
readerofasaph: At least you didn't have to wait one hundred chapters for your next sight of your favourite character. /mourns/
thephoenixboy: Yamato only shows up twice total
aiwritingfic: ^_^ No, but I had to suffer through a long period in which there was no Tezuka because he was away.
readerofasaph: Tezuka still plays for Yamato.
readerofasaph: At least your favourite character was not BUTCHERED in the Rikkai finals.
aiwritingfic: And I was reduced to being pathetic and going "squee" whenever they so much as _said_ his name.
readerofasaph: It made the anime version of Kirihara look like brilliant development.
aiwritingfic: XD no, you're right, tezuka was treated fairly.
aiwritingfic: and that means i don't hate konomi.
thephoenixboy: Kirihara went backwards
aiwritingfic: (though i feel bad that tezuka lost like that.)
thephoenixboy: which is just weird
readerofasaph: Yeah well. I'm clinging to Sanada because at least he remains a coherent and interesting character throughout.
thephoenixboy: yes
aiwritingfic: sanada is basically an old man in a teenager's body.
thephoenixboy: Yamato does that too - he's not around enough to butcher
readerofasaph: Yukimura is just all shadow and illusion, just like his techniques.
readerofasaph: But Sanada is really naive, in some ways.
aiwritingfic: too old-fashioned.
aiwritingfic: easy to predict.
thephoenixboy: 'if I put in enough work, I will win'
readerofasaph: But very real. very solid. Very reassuring.
aiwritingfic: *nods* yes. <3
aiwritingfic: *wants to marry one*
thephoenixboy: like the mountain
readerofasaph: (One day, Ai, I will actually try and convince you of the similarities to Miles Edgeworth.)
aiwritingfic: Sanada = Miles Edgeworth?
readerofasaph: Not =.
aiwritingfic: oh. if we're talking similarities, you don't have to try.
aiwritingfic: i can see them
readerofasaph: But the aura and the internal feel are startlingly similar.
readerofasaph: Who wanted to play PW without Edgeworth?
readerofasaph: Yeah. And Yuki clings to Sanada so.
readerofasaph: "I told you not to talk to me about tennis!"
thephoenixboy: he needs Sanada to be solid
readerofasaph: Which is quite interesting, since it implies a whole different level of communication they have with each other.
aiwritingfic: where's that line from?
readerofasaph: Since as captain and vice-captain they only /can/ talk to each other about tennis.
thephoenixboy: flashback during the s1 match?
aiwritingfic: ah. *sits this out again*
thephoenixboy: I think, anyway
thephoenixboy: would take me a while to dig out
readerofasaph: yeah.
readerofasaph: second-last chapter.
aiwritingfic: i'm about to bow out. dying of the sleep-related variety.
readerofasaph: second-last chapter.
aiwritingfic: calling it a day?
thephoenixboy: aww
thephoenixboy: ok
readerofasaph: well, it's late.
aiwritingfic: are you two continuing this?
thephoenixboy: my last exam is tomorrow - after that I'm free whenver you feel like talking
aiwritingfic: (it's early, 3am)
readerofasaph: yeah well, you know what i mean.
aiwritingfic: we'll see if i still wake at 6.
thephoenixboy: please don't
aiwritingfic: i blame the nap i had th is afternoon.
aiwritingfic: k, well anyway.
readerofasaph: 'night.
thephoenixboy: night night
readerofasaph: thanks for inviting me!
aiwritingfic: heading off <3 if there is more pot analysis let me know
thephoenixboy: twas fun ^_^
readerofasaph: it's been ages since I've meta-ed anything.
thephoenixboy: there needs to be more PoT meta
aiwritingfic: and welcome--it was great to have someone who's not completely seigaku-focused!