Thelema Revisited: A Critique

[ashkosis]

I am posting this for two reasons: lots of people seem to think I'm still a Thelemite and I wanted to explain why I no longer am. I have no interest in insulting anyone and I am happy for all those who find Thelema to be rewarding. At the moment, I don't have much time for drama, so I'm only willing to reply to thoughtful, even-handed comments.

Comments

[brian33]

Thank you so much for posting this, I found it really interesting. I'm glad that you can recognise the significance of being a Thelemite to that past period of your life, and happy that you're happy with where you're now at :-)

[ashkosis]

You're welcome, Brian. Although being where I am feels like coming home, my adventures in Thelema inform my RN perspectives in a unique way. Many RN authors are ex-Christians, which is quite obvious in their writings. I was never a Christian, so I am happy that my perspective on RN is not colored by faith, but by the Thelemic values I adopted (and listed in the conclusion above). My spiritual travels are relatively unique in that I didn't go through an Abrahamic faith, which gives me the room to make my religious life more fully authentic to who I am. I'd like to think so, anyway. :)

[lapidus_93]

You mentioned your interest in religious naturalism. I was wondering if you were familiar with "Religious Naturalism Today: The Rebirth of a Forgotten Alternative" - by Jerome A. Stone.

[ashkosis]

It's sitting on my desk right now :) I've been fortunate enough to have struck up an informal conversation with Dr. Stone. He's a really nice guy.

Behind the Times

[panshiva]

"What's more, science continues the process of naturalizing the universe, so that where souls and angels once provided explanations, we now have the fields of neurology and physics

Re: Behind the Times

[ashkosis]

I am already convinced that mystical practices can potentially lead to many different states of mind that can be profound, exhilarating, or transformative. I have also studied reliable research about the effects of various forms of meditation and mindfulness...I am not ignorant of these things and am even trained to use some of those findings in my therapeutic practice. Nowhere in my essay did I claim that such practices are not worthwhile; in fact, I said the opposite

Keep on Topic

[panshiva]

I'm questioning your seemingly materialistic rejection of Magick, not your investment in the efficacy of mind/body therapies

Re: Keep on Topic

[ashkosis]

Mark, I'm sorry, but you aren't saying anything new. You are still making arguments by offering assumptions about my attitudes and internal experience. You still claim that science supports your beliefs but then criticize science when it rejects your beliefs. I admire your persistence, but it's getting old.

I admitted that I've made an epistemological choice and I've explained why I've made it. While I am convinced of the efficacy of the scientific method, I am open to new models of reality when adequate evidence arrives. I'm ready for our understanding of the world to change, even if that involves ESP or spirits, but I demand evidence that is observable, repeatable, and predictable. I'm not going to compromise that standard just because certain claims can't live up to it.

[ashkosis]

Well, I didn't make those claims, because: (a) a religion doesn't derive from holy books, but develops from an organic social dynamic, part of which generally involves scripture, and (b) Crowley doesn't "have" to be anything, but at this point in time he does happen to be largely considered the central voice for orthodox Thelema. If Thelema develops different ethical voices, they will be compared to Crowley's voice; that doesn't mean they couldn't come about, they just haven't yet.

I also disagree that empirical and non-empirical epistemologies are of equal value in regards to determining the nature of reality. It isn't just about what feels right, but what produces useful and reliable results. No non-empirical method would have discovered DNA, natural selection, the cosmic background radiation, quarks, or any other number of things involved in medicine, engineering, or psychology. The underlying methods and attitudes are also completely different...I point you to this wonderful essay about science.

The question of number.

[kiwano]

Having dismissed any identity as a Thelemite a while back, rest assured that I am not writing a defence of Thelema so much as a critique of an apparent oversight in your reasoning

Re: The question of number.

[ashkosis]

The problem with your comparison is that Thelema does not claim that Will is an abstraction, but an actual force that influences physical motivation and guides one's destiny in real space. It's like comparing the number 6 to the desire to eat when hungry. To address your other point, values and ideals are also not physical objects, but no one would consider liberty or fairness to be supernatural.

Your final paragraph is well-stated. The reason that no assurance or benchmarks are possible is because there is nothing to assess. I suppose it's possible that certain bio readings might be possible in certain states, but there's no way to correlate such readings with the claimed mystical constructs. Even if someone could, it still wouldn't be evidence that it wasn't all in the mind.

Re: The question of number.

[kiwano]

The problem with your comparison is that Thelema does not claim that Will is an abstraction, but an actual force that influences physical motivation and guides one's destiny in real space. It's like comparing the number 6 to the desire to eat when hungry.

I'm not sure that I quite agree with the distinction that you're drawing there. ISTR that the passage from Liber Al along the lines of "thou hast no right but to do thy Will" was pretty knowingly cribbed from Levi's assertion that "thou hast no right but to do thy duty". Now I'm pretty sure that the notion of "duty" is quite abstract, yet it has managed to motivate no small number of young men to e.g. run directly into machine gun fire.

Now the number 6 might not be a particularly motivational abstraction, but I'm not sure that I'd want to discount any other similarities on those grounds.

To address your other point, values and ideals are also not physical objects, but no one would consider liberty or fairness to be supernatural. Are you sure about no one considering liberty or

Re: The question of number.

[ashkosis]

"Now I'm pretty sure that the notion of "duty" is quite abstract, yet it has managed to motivate no small number of young men to e.g. run directly into machine gun fire."

You are making an extrapolation that AC never himself made. Whatever his source of inspiration (or imitation), he never described Will as itself being a sense of duty. Based on AC's writings, and I believe the common understanding in Thelemic culture, Will is less like the duty to follow orders than the orders themselves.

Within THelema, people can, in principle, have a Will, but no one can have a six.

"Are you sure about no one considering liberty or fairness to be supernatural?"

I think you are trying to see how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here. But I'll state it another way: I've never heard of values or ideals described as supernatural and I myself do not believe them to be, nor do I see the concept to be a very useful one.

"There was nothing even remotely tangible about my work"Tangibility is not a required trait for something to be real.