Rock and Read 41 - Tatsuro
Wow it's been a while since I've used my journal but I'm still translating stuff so I'll still keep them here, lol, it's convenient.
This interview is long but really insightful and awesome and I had fun banging my head on the wall trying to figure out how to translate it :D Enjoy~
- Your last interview for this magazine was on March 11th, 2011. It's been exactly a year, so have you done any thinking about how time has past since then?
Honestly, I haven't really. Everything has just gone back to normal so completely that I don't think about it. Right when it's almost starting to feel like nothing happened, we're getting into the, "It's been a year since then" timing, so of course there will be programs on TV and stuff about it. I'm not sure about that trend. Since in some ways nothing's progressed at all, and there are still a lot of things that are being hidden from the media. But, it was a very strange experience. So I thought if there was ever a chance like this I would like to talk about it again.
- A year ago it started shaking when we were in the studio, and we managed to disperse with the photoshoot done, and then a week later we had the interview. That was when you admitted that "For better or worse I give in easily". Also something like, "Whatever happens happens" and "I can't help what happens" are really the same thing.
My thinking hasn't changed since then. I don't necessarily mean just let anything happen, but fighting against something you can't do anything about...that's when it's useful to use the word "fate". You just say "It's fate" for anything and you're done. Basically I think that happens if you can't come up with any other explanation.
- It's also called baseless confidence, but fate might be the thing that's the most baseless.
Yeah. It's basically just something to stick on the end. I can't think of anything else so it's fate. It can have a positive or negative meaning, but if you only look at the negative part, I think it can turn into the words "there's nothing I can do".
- So are you the type who doesn't believe in fate?
Whether I believe in it or not, doesn't it just come down to probability? I don't know the formula or anything, but it feels really mathematical. For example I think the chances of randomly running into someone you know while walking down the street are pretty high. Rather than someone you don't know. It's true that if you weren't in the same place at the same time it wouldn't happen, and that's pretty amazing. But if you think about it, it could also be that you only noticed because you know each other. That it just happened because you know each other's faces. Reversely, you could have walked by someone you don't know any number of times.
- That's true. By the way, last time we also talked about things like the "power of music". After the earthquake, I think there were more people who made music in order to heal and make others feel better.
A lot of musicians held charity events and gave all the proceeds to the affected area, which is great in this instance. I feel like it's something that we're able to do because we're musicians. But in general I don't think we can change things with music. For instance I don't think it could ultimately save someone who is severely depressed. In that sense, my thinking hasn't changed. For better or worse it really made me think about things, but also, I've never personally had any huge or severe problems in my life. Also, there were a lot of those events happening at first, but now... And on things like Twitter, you might feel like you've done something good by retweeting something. Though I don't think it's good to assume that you've saved someone by doing that. This past year, I feel like we've gotten to see a lot of people's true selves. People that don't change, people that are honest...I think there are probably different kinds of honest people.
- It might be strange, but I think it's okay to have, "useful insincerity". But you can't say there isn't something else in there too.
Yeah. Even if it was insincere, if it actually got something moving and really helped I think that's pretty amazing. But of course there are people who are only working to create an image for themselves. So I think the people who announce, "It's dangerous here so I'm leaving", and go far away are more honest. If you admit that protecting yourself is most important, then of course you have the choice to run away. But anyway, we've definitely been able to see different aspects of different people this past year.
- For MUCC, the earthquake occured when you were heading toward your 15th anniversary. These situations tend to make people think about life in general, so weren't there at least a few times when it made you think about the band's beginnings? Since it is a big turning point.
It is a definitely a turning point, but honestly that never really happened. We've just gotten to this point so naturally. Rather than it going by in a flash, it's actually been a long time, and I think we'll continue this way to our 20th anniversary. When I think about how things are now, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be celebrating it in five years anyway (laugh).
- Did you ever imagine what you would be like when it was your 15th anniversary?
Not specifically, no. I never thought about how far we would go, or when it would end. A while ago I had an interview with Nishikawa (Takanori)-san, and I thought it was amazing when he said that he had definite goals, like "I want to be doing this by the time I'm this age". Since I don't have anything like that. It seems like a lot of people around me do though. Like at what age they want to debut or whatever. But it's pointless if you have it already decided and then get stressed about it, or try to force yourself into a recording company or something. That's what I think. Though as for "realizing your dreams", I do think people who have the motivation to chase after something they've been dreaming of for years are amazing. Because I'm really not like that at all (laugh).
- Even if you simply start working for a company, I think it's possible to want to become manager or something by a certain age.
I understand. But wouldn't you get stressed holding onto that? Though I suppose it could give you extra power or something. I guess for us everyone just goes at their own pace.
- A band of four people who go at their own pace.
Yeah. I was suprised a while back when I interviewed Inoran-san, and he said that he first played at Tokyo Dome when he was 24. Hearing that kind of blew me away (laugh). I mean, that's really incredible. Because that means he was around 30 when they broke up right? I was like, so he was younger then than I am now? Being faced with that made me kind of feel like I should have some sort of vision or something (laugh). But, and this isn't just for Luna Sea, but no matter how hard you try, history won't really remember it. No matter how much you try to turn it around, you can't go against that. So as for what we should do now, we can only keep going without stopping. If I actually look back, we've never had a break or period of 2 or 3 months where we weren't doing anything.
- Yes. MUCC is almost rare in that you've never had a pause.
I think usually when you've overcome one hurdle you take one or two months off and work on songs individually or something. We've never even done that. But actually, I'm not sure. The reason why we've never gotten time off might be because in 15 years we haven't overcome any hurdles (laugh). If we did maybe we would have been given a vacation.
- You make it sound like you really want a vacation.
Ahh, I don't know though (laughs). Actually I don't even think it would be a vacation. Even if we got two months or so off it would be like, "After this we'll have a release, so each of you should have 10 songs prepared" (laughs).
- But in 15 years, the fact that you've never had to stop is amazing. I think that has value in itself.
Since we've never had any huge injuries or sicknesses. Maybe we've just been a little lucky in that department (laughs). It's not super good luck though. I don't believe in anything as out-there as fate, but I do recognize good luck, and I think a little good luck and timing can be really important. That's what I think about most after continuing for 15 years. It can mess up a band's abilities, or make it show something other than ability.
- Timing can decide whether something that should have been appreciated gets buried, or the reverse.
Yeah. There are plenty of examples around me of people who think that if the timing was different this band would be doing so well, and things like that.
- So have there been any times in these past 15 years when you felt like you didn't have that luck or timing? Or that the times weren't being kind to you?
Ahh, yeah. We're lucky when it comes to health and we have the basic luck to be able to continue with the band, but we might not have extremely good luck in specific areas (laugh). Just releasing one work means that you have to take a lot of things into consideration. So we'd think about it and decide on a time period, but maybe on the release day a lot of other things would come up and it wouldn't do that well (laugh). Things like that make me feel like we let the most important fish get away (laugh). I guess it happens that way since we have so much basic good luck. Like the only day we have an outdoor concert it's storming (laugh).
- So it's like you've never caught a cold, but then you've never won the lottery.
Yes, yes, yes. Just like that. Though I guess the only thing to do is keep buying lottery tickets so one day you might win (laugh).
- In other words you just need to keep going with the band.
Yeah. I think it's an amazing thing to be able to keep going. That's what makes me happier than anything else. That there's no reason for the band to end. Talking about it in terms of luck, when I look around me there are a lot of bands that believe if they had just gotten started 4 or 5 years later they would have been so much bigger. For instance, one band might be a pioneer in a certain field, but maybe if they had waited until the land was already there they would have been bigger.
- Do you ever think of yourselves in that way?
For us it's just been a lucky pattern. Since for MUCC, there was the pioneer cali≠gari, so we were able to slide right into the land that they created. And we've never had any huge hardships. So I'm actually not able to give any advice as to what to do if you're in a band. I can watch lives and give tips here and there, but I can't say anything when it comes to direction or future goals. It would just come down to what I'm personally interested in. And I don't think that my personal preferences are the right answer for everyone.
- I actually don't think you're the type of person who gives off sempai airs, Tatsuro-san. By the way, the other day you uncharacteristically tweeted that "There are a lot of bands now with no individuality", and that everyone is going along with the same trends. Was that brought on by anything?
No, not really. I've just found myself getting into those moods lately. I think it's all declining. When I talk with my musician friends lately, we agree that since there aren't any young artists now with enough power to make us feel threatened, we just keep getting older. There's no one that makes us feel like we'll turn into fossils if we're careless. So I guess I thought it'd be good if saying something like that stirred things up a little. You know, there's no one who really puts themselves out there. No one who's really sharp. Everyone is just copying someone else, and everything is borrowed. The sound, make-up, lyrics, singing style. There aren't any bands who for better or worse are too unique. Since the fans also seem to want "whatever's popular".
- I wonder why it's turned out like that?
I'm thinking it's because what the companies are doing isn't good. To go even further, it's also because of how things spread on the internet. Things are so easy to get now. First of all you can listen to music without buying CDs. Which means mainly that people only buy the CDs they really want. There aren't as many anymore who care about listening to music in really good quality. So the people selling music decide that the bands they have aren't enough, and look for new ones to make up for it. And they all pick bands who aren't ready yet. Companies are inviting bands who before wouldn't have been at that stage yet even if they wanted to get into one, so bands that haven't even done a one-man show are joining some company. And then the adults start deciding things for bands who don't have a set direction or individuality yet. They have to listen to what they say and are at their mercy, and the band fails. Then the bands start saying weird things like, "They didn't help us sell"..... We're in that kind of vicious circle. And there's no one who resists it. There aren't many who'll say, "Yeah we're getting offers all over the place but we haven't taken any, aren't we awesome!?".
- So I suppose it just ends with the adults taking care of the threats.
Yeah. Whats worst is how companies or the media or festivals who were never interested in visual kei before are suddenly reaching out. In this genre, even if it's said that the music industry is in a slump, the numbers stay the same. The demographic is pretty fixed, so CDs are easier to sell compared to other genres, and the numbers are easier to predict. I guess that's why they pretend that they're "adopting new styles", and reach out like that. It honestly makes me want to say, "But you weren't even interested in visual kei before were you?". Even someone like me can tell that the money problems are getting desperate.
- The adults are to blame for only looking at the immediate future, but so are the bands who are so easily swayed. Is that what you want to say?
Yeah. But I'm not sure. After being around for 15 years we can be all self-important and say "Ahh it's so boring", but if the positions were reversed and we were trying to start a band now we'd probably be thinking about it a lot. The real problem is that there aren't many people left (laugh). And what should our music sound like? Though rather than thinking "What should we do?", it's better to just do what you really want to. And if it clashes with someone else, then you can't help that. Instead of copying someone else, just have fun doing what you love. I think that's what it is. It feels like fun is lacking lately. Like, all you have to do is use your head a little. I feel like if you're only using your head from the start, everything gets kind of compacted. Though I guess if you can get there by the shortest distance then that's good. When you end up somewhere after you've done so many different things, even if it felt like a roundabout way, I think that's the shortest in the end. And it's different for every band. Luna Sea playing Tokyo Dome when they were so young was the shortest way for them, and us taking nine years to play Budokan and 15 years to get where we are now was also the shortest way.
- So until you reach that place you won't know what your shortest distance would be?
Yeah. For instance, SID played at Budokan three years after their debut I think it was? That might sound fast, but if you go by Mao-kun as just one musician, it took him a really long time to get there. But then wasn't the time necessary? It was the shortest way including that time. So you have to make your move understanding that. Trying to make a band understand that is impossible though. Actually I really love idiots who wouldn't understand that even if I explained it to them (laugh). I would like there to be more idiotic bands like that. This conversation would go right over their heads. I'd like it if they went, "What are you talking about? I don't really get it, but as long as we're awesome who cares?".
- You're definitely not trying to be one of those lecturing old guys are you.
Nope (laugh). I'm just saying it would be a lot funner for me if there were more bands like that.
- But have you ever thought, "Stop pushing your old way of doing things on me" when your sempais said something like that to you?
Um...even if I did think that for a second, when I went on stage with them I would think "They really are amazing!", and their sound would make me understand. And there wasn't actually anyone who told it to me that simply while we were eating or drinking together or something. Ao-san (cali≠gari) has said a lot of things in interviews and stuff, but he never told me anything like that directly. Their sound just beat it into me. Like, "How should we smack down these energetic kouhais" (laugh). And we bit into it as hard as we could. I think that contributed to our good relationship.
- So there aren't any kouhai who you can torment like that now?
There aren't. Ones that I can think "I'm gonna beat you bloody". Like how a father lion would push the baby lion off a hill and wait for him to climb back up (laugh). I want to be able to do something like that. A while ago when it was decided we would have a two-man show with another band, one of the production guys said to me, "This band is kind of starting to stagnate, so do you think you could seriously just beat them up without them catching on?". So I thought that even though we had been getting along well, I'd go at it intending to smash them to pieces. So after we finished our set they'd be thinking, "I don't want to go on after them!". That would be the key. Thinking about the setlist and stuff with that in mind was just so much fun (laugh).
- You really do have a good personality, Tatsuro-san.
Hahaha! But, you need to get each other fired up like that. I think that's what those events are for. Not just to attract more people. We had to do it so they'd end up regretting inviting us. When we were younger we had tons of fun at those events too. The other performers were all huge bands, and when we were the first ones up it was really fun to just do it and run off.
- Though as you get older it becomes less acceptable to just do it and run off.
Yeah. But what I hate the most are people who try to get the best part and say, "I want to go first" even in an event where it's obvious that it won't go as well unless they go last. I just think that's petty. And I feel bad for the band that has to go last. So whenever we're in an event and we think it's a situation where we should go last, we'll be honest and go last.
- Since the ranks have already been decided, so you're confident that you can claim an overwhelming victory?
And I don't want to be petty about that kind of thing. I've noticed that kind of pettiness show up on Twitter every once in a while. So sometimes I'll see it just glare at it (laugh).
- You're really going after them, huh. Even though you're a "good guy at heart" (laugh). [From his Twitter profile] But you understand your own position, so you're able to adapt to the situation from there.
That's true. Out of these 15 years, the past two...or should I say since I turned 30, everything has been so fun. Making music is fun, and being able to do so many different things. The balance between what I want to do, what I can do, and what I want to do is just right. And I think we're in the perfect position as a band. We can hang out with the younger bands, and we're at the point where our sempais are inviting us to things too. People from completely different genres are even starting to say, "I wouldn't mind playing with someone else if it's MUCC". It's a position that I'm really grateful to be in.
- I don't think it was luck that earned you that position.
I guess it's because we actually went out and did so many things. Since we took so much time to do it. Putting it simply, at first MUCC t-shirts didn't sell at all. Though it was like that for everyone in visual kei. But we kept making them every time, and people started buying them once it became an established thing, and as a result towels and t-shirts started to go along with the lives. Also, I figured that if other genres wouldn't have anything to do with us, we should create our own weird, non-genre event. Then it spread as more and more people willingly participated. I suppose we're where we are now because we kept doing things like that. So that's definitely not luck.
- And you probably weren't calculating the result those actions would have.
It wasn't really calculated. It was a simple thing. If no one invites us then we'll do the inviting. We never thought about what effect it would have. If we had fun, the other bands participating had fun, and the fans enjoyed it, then that's all that mattered. The one thing we did think about when planning an event was to only invite bands who really made us feel threatened. And that were in a completely different genre. For most of the fans it would be their first time seeing that band, but if they had an amazing performance it would make us think, "Crap, we have to go on after them!". It's that speechless nervousness and the, "We really did it this time" sort of feeling that I love more than anything else (laugh). It's not anything special though, it's just what we always saw cali≠gari doing. At Tokyo Chikatestu we saw them planning for bands that would completely eat them up. Which is why we wanted our "En" to be the same thing. Like when we first invited Cockroach, it was amazing. Naturally we had them go first, and since no one had seen them before it was pretty quiet. But the ones who sold the most CDs that day was Cockroach.
- So you want more of that sense of danger?
I really do. There's not enough of it. For better or worse, a lot of visual kei fans are pretty straight-forward and one-minded, and I just think I would like them to look at different things and listen to different types of music as well. Because if they do that and still say they like MUCC, then that makes us even happier. We won't be able to spread farther if we don't go about it in that way. What's so good about the bands I like. Isn't it better to realize it that way? It's just like, "Isn't our ramen the best? Theirs is pretty good too, but it's a little different isn't it?".
- I understand. And I think that since the young bands aren't rising to the front, there's not much room at the top.
Yeah. There are still so many sempais (laugh). Though the number of kouhais isn't increasing either. It's like no matter how much time goes by we're still in the middle. I keep thinking, won't everyone just hurry up and go away (laugh). But the sempais who are left have so much vitality. Seriously, there's no one but monsters left (laugh). If you want to work your way into the middle of all of these monsters, then the only thing to do is become a monster yourself. Because there are so many people who are like a thorn in our side. So we also want to become a thorn in the sides of our kouhai.
- Right above MUCC at the moment are monsters and resurrected zombies.
Yeah. And zombies can't die again. So that's our problem (laugh). Then at the same time, the kouhai who have the power to come at us....it's not like there aren't any, but there definitely aren't very many.
- Do you ever feel like you should spur them on somehow?
Not really. Because the fact that you'd need someone to do that for you is pretty bad. It would have to be a natural occurence. So I think if I found a band that I thought was good I'd probably tell them, "Even if you get offers you shouldn't tie yourself to anyone" (laugh). You can take care of yourselves for a while. Until a certain point you can get by without relying on the adults. Though if an event planner needed someone I would invite them, but I think you should do what you can by yourself, and find out how far you can go on your own. I think it's safe to say that there aren't many companies now who are willing to help bands grow. They'll help them sell, but not grow. So I think that to an extent, bands should help themselves grow, or they'll fail.
- But I think that people were recruiting bands early in any generation, so to some extent it's probably the same things all over again.
Yeah. And the only reason we were unique was because we stuck with cali≠gari. We couldn't be too similar or too different. Since it was a community of guys from different genres who didn't fit into any of them. I think the fact that we grew in that environment while watching sempais like cali≠gari was really important. If we had joined one of the companies that things like this happen to visual kei bands in, I think things would have been a lot different. That's where we're the luckiest. So basically being born in Ibaraki (laugh). There was cali≠gari, and La Vie En Rose, who's a year older than us. Then there was us and Cockroach. There are a lot of weird bands from Ibaraki.
- It's not right next to Tokyo, but it's not that far from it either. That distance might also have something to do with it.
Maybe. There's a lot of nature, but since it is pretty close to Tokyo, the sempais who moved their base to Tokyo would still come back every once in a while. And they would show us Tokyo's influence. But since their base was in Tokyo, they never clumped together at home. That probably had an impact too. I was suprised the first time I saw cali≠gari at Shinjuku Loft, and I thought, "If there are ten bands in Tokyo, there are ten different styles". Though if I really think about it, it was just because it was cali≠gari's event (laugh). So that was our foundation. Naturally cali≠gari came at us with all their power, so the only thing we could do was bite into it with all we had.
- So MUCC has it's strength now because of those roots.
And of course we're a bunch of weird members. Just guys with strong personalities. We did a good job getting members like this together from backcountry place like Ibaraki. I guess it's fate.
- That was a good punchline right there don't you think?
Yeah (laugh). Like, what would I call it if not fate. I guess this is the one instance I do believe in fate.
- The conversation has come together beautifully, but I would like to talk a little more about "now". You changed labels and released two singles, so I suppose a new album is in the works?
The work has actually been pretty fun lately. The lyrics are a little more funny. Lately since I've had more time to work on them, the songs are more individual. There are more playful songs especially. For some reason my head is clearer now while writing lyrics compared to when we were working on "Karma". Like I've become more mischievous.
- I think that's probably because you've already established what MUCC should be. So you don't have to keep aiming for something like that.
Yeah. So I want to keep biting into it a little longer. Sometimes when I listen to songs I wrote when I was 24 or 25, I feel like my choice of words and general outlook was sharper. Like I was irritated by something. But I think that's something rock should have. And with MUCC now I can add some fun to that irritation, and do a lot more with the songs themselves. I think the album will have that sense of fun stuffed into it as well. Though there's really nothing I'm irritated with at the moment (laugh). And I don't think there's anything wrong with that kind of atmosphere or way of thinking. The way of thinking we have because we're young, and the atmosphere we can create because we're where we are now. It'd be great we can make an album that meshes and balances those two things.
- Since there aren't many young bands trying to pull you down, do you feel like you might as well stay young yourselves?
Well, I want to stay strong. Becase we're letting the thorns in our sides above us know more and more that we can take them on, so I think they need to do the same thing. That's why it's fun. Where we are now is so fun. We have a lot of weapons we can use.
- And we're all looking forward to the festival on June 9th to celebrate your 15th anniversary.
I honestly just want to have fun. It'd be great if it ends up being a live where the fans are constantly thinking excitedly, "I wonder what's coming next?". It should be filled with a lot of tricks and excitement anyway. Since it's not tied to an album, and there should be plenty of volume. Also because it's our 15th anniversary, we're splitting it into three parts of five years each. We aren't planning on going in chronological order either, and the intervals in between won't be just filled with waiting. Then, after our 15th anniversary live, where do we go from here. That's what I'm really looking forward to now.
This interview is long but really insightful and awesome and I had fun banging my head on the wall trying to figure out how to translate it :D Enjoy~
- Your last interview for this magazine was on March 11th, 2011. It's been exactly a year, so have you done any thinking about how time has past since then?
Honestly, I haven't really. Everything has just gone back to normal so completely that I don't think about it. Right when it's almost starting to feel like nothing happened, we're getting into the, "It's been a year since then" timing, so of course there will be programs on TV and stuff about it. I'm not sure about that trend. Since in some ways nothing's progressed at all, and there are still a lot of things that are being hidden from the media. But, it was a very strange experience. So I thought if there was ever a chance like this I would like to talk about it again.
- A year ago it started shaking when we were in the studio, and we managed to disperse with the photoshoot done, and then a week later we had the interview. That was when you admitted that "For better or worse I give in easily". Also something like, "Whatever happens happens" and "I can't help what happens" are really the same thing.
My thinking hasn't changed since then. I don't necessarily mean just let anything happen, but fighting against something you can't do anything about...that's when it's useful to use the word "fate". You just say "It's fate" for anything and you're done. Basically I think that happens if you can't come up with any other explanation.
- It's also called baseless confidence, but fate might be the thing that's the most baseless.
Yeah. It's basically just something to stick on the end. I can't think of anything else so it's fate. It can have a positive or negative meaning, but if you only look at the negative part, I think it can turn into the words "there's nothing I can do".
- So are you the type who doesn't believe in fate?
Whether I believe in it or not, doesn't it just come down to probability? I don't know the formula or anything, but it feels really mathematical. For example I think the chances of randomly running into someone you know while walking down the street are pretty high. Rather than someone you don't know. It's true that if you weren't in the same place at the same time it wouldn't happen, and that's pretty amazing. But if you think about it, it could also be that you only noticed because you know each other. That it just happened because you know each other's faces. Reversely, you could have walked by someone you don't know any number of times.
- That's true. By the way, last time we also talked about things like the "power of music". After the earthquake, I think there were more people who made music in order to heal and make others feel better.
A lot of musicians held charity events and gave all the proceeds to the affected area, which is great in this instance. I feel like it's something that we're able to do because we're musicians. But in general I don't think we can change things with music. For instance I don't think it could ultimately save someone who is severely depressed. In that sense, my thinking hasn't changed. For better or worse it really made me think about things, but also, I've never personally had any huge or severe problems in my life. Also, there were a lot of those events happening at first, but now... And on things like Twitter, you might feel like you've done something good by retweeting something. Though I don't think it's good to assume that you've saved someone by doing that. This past year, I feel like we've gotten to see a lot of people's true selves. People that don't change, people that are honest...I think there are probably different kinds of honest people.
- It might be strange, but I think it's okay to have, "useful insincerity". But you can't say there isn't something else in there too.
Yeah. Even if it was insincere, if it actually got something moving and really helped I think that's pretty amazing. But of course there are people who are only working to create an image for themselves. So I think the people who announce, "It's dangerous here so I'm leaving", and go far away are more honest. If you admit that protecting yourself is most important, then of course you have the choice to run away. But anyway, we've definitely been able to see different aspects of different people this past year.
- For MUCC, the earthquake occured when you were heading toward your 15th anniversary. These situations tend to make people think about life in general, so weren't there at least a few times when it made you think about the band's beginnings? Since it is a big turning point.
It is a definitely a turning point, but honestly that never really happened. We've just gotten to this point so naturally. Rather than it going by in a flash, it's actually been a long time, and I think we'll continue this way to our 20th anniversary. When I think about how things are now, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be celebrating it in five years anyway (laugh).
- Did you ever imagine what you would be like when it was your 15th anniversary?
Not specifically, no. I never thought about how far we would go, or when it would end. A while ago I had an interview with Nishikawa (Takanori)-san, and I thought it was amazing when he said that he had definite goals, like "I want to be doing this by the time I'm this age". Since I don't have anything like that. It seems like a lot of people around me do though. Like at what age they want to debut or whatever. But it's pointless if you have it already decided and then get stressed about it, or try to force yourself into a recording company or something. That's what I think. Though as for "realizing your dreams", I do think people who have the motivation to chase after something they've been dreaming of for years are amazing. Because I'm really not like that at all (laugh).
- Even if you simply start working for a company, I think it's possible to want to become manager or something by a certain age.
I understand. But wouldn't you get stressed holding onto that? Though I suppose it could give you extra power or something. I guess for us everyone just goes at their own pace.
- A band of four people who go at their own pace.
Yeah. I was suprised a while back when I interviewed Inoran-san, and he said that he first played at Tokyo Dome when he was 24. Hearing that kind of blew me away (laugh). I mean, that's really incredible. Because that means he was around 30 when they broke up right? I was like, so he was younger then than I am now? Being faced with that made me kind of feel like I should have some sort of vision or something (laugh). But, and this isn't just for Luna Sea, but no matter how hard you try, history won't really remember it. No matter how much you try to turn it around, you can't go against that. So as for what we should do now, we can only keep going without stopping. If I actually look back, we've never had a break or period of 2 or 3 months where we weren't doing anything.
- Yes. MUCC is almost rare in that you've never had a pause.
I think usually when you've overcome one hurdle you take one or two months off and work on songs individually or something. We've never even done that. But actually, I'm not sure. The reason why we've never gotten time off might be because in 15 years we haven't overcome any hurdles (laugh). If we did maybe we would have been given a vacation.
- You make it sound like you really want a vacation.
Ahh, I don't know though (laughs). Actually I don't even think it would be a vacation. Even if we got two months or so off it would be like, "After this we'll have a release, so each of you should have 10 songs prepared" (laughs).
- But in 15 years, the fact that you've never had to stop is amazing. I think that has value in itself.
Since we've never had any huge injuries or sicknesses. Maybe we've just been a little lucky in that department (laughs). It's not super good luck though. I don't believe in anything as out-there as fate, but I do recognize good luck, and I think a little good luck and timing can be really important. That's what I think about most after continuing for 15 years. It can mess up a band's abilities, or make it show something other than ability.
- Timing can decide whether something that should have been appreciated gets buried, or the reverse.
Yeah. There are plenty of examples around me of people who think that if the timing was different this band would be doing so well, and things like that.
- So have there been any times in these past 15 years when you felt like you didn't have that luck or timing? Or that the times weren't being kind to you?
Ahh, yeah. We're lucky when it comes to health and we have the basic luck to be able to continue with the band, but we might not have extremely good luck in specific areas (laugh). Just releasing one work means that you have to take a lot of things into consideration. So we'd think about it and decide on a time period, but maybe on the release day a lot of other things would come up and it wouldn't do that well (laugh). Things like that make me feel like we let the most important fish get away (laugh). I guess it happens that way since we have so much basic good luck. Like the only day we have an outdoor concert it's storming (laugh).
- So it's like you've never caught a cold, but then you've never won the lottery.
Yes, yes, yes. Just like that. Though I guess the only thing to do is keep buying lottery tickets so one day you might win (laugh).
- In other words you just need to keep going with the band.
Yeah. I think it's an amazing thing to be able to keep going. That's what makes me happier than anything else. That there's no reason for the band to end. Talking about it in terms of luck, when I look around me there are a lot of bands that believe if they had just gotten started 4 or 5 years later they would have been so much bigger. For instance, one band might be a pioneer in a certain field, but maybe if they had waited until the land was already there they would have been bigger.
- Do you ever think of yourselves in that way?
For us it's just been a lucky pattern. Since for MUCC, there was the pioneer cali≠gari, so we were able to slide right into the land that they created. And we've never had any huge hardships. So I'm actually not able to give any advice as to what to do if you're in a band. I can watch lives and give tips here and there, but I can't say anything when it comes to direction or future goals. It would just come down to what I'm personally interested in. And I don't think that my personal preferences are the right answer for everyone.
- I actually don't think you're the type of person who gives off sempai airs, Tatsuro-san. By the way, the other day you uncharacteristically tweeted that "There are a lot of bands now with no individuality", and that everyone is going along with the same trends. Was that brought on by anything?
No, not really. I've just found myself getting into those moods lately. I think it's all declining. When I talk with my musician friends lately, we agree that since there aren't any young artists now with enough power to make us feel threatened, we just keep getting older. There's no one that makes us feel like we'll turn into fossils if we're careless. So I guess I thought it'd be good if saying something like that stirred things up a little. You know, there's no one who really puts themselves out there. No one who's really sharp. Everyone is just copying someone else, and everything is borrowed. The sound, make-up, lyrics, singing style. There aren't any bands who for better or worse are too unique. Since the fans also seem to want "whatever's popular".
- I wonder why it's turned out like that?
I'm thinking it's because what the companies are doing isn't good. To go even further, it's also because of how things spread on the internet. Things are so easy to get now. First of all you can listen to music without buying CDs. Which means mainly that people only buy the CDs they really want. There aren't as many anymore who care about listening to music in really good quality. So the people selling music decide that the bands they have aren't enough, and look for new ones to make up for it. And they all pick bands who aren't ready yet. Companies are inviting bands who before wouldn't have been at that stage yet even if they wanted to get into one, so bands that haven't even done a one-man show are joining some company. And then the adults start deciding things for bands who don't have a set direction or individuality yet. They have to listen to what they say and are at their mercy, and the band fails. Then the bands start saying weird things like, "They didn't help us sell"..... We're in that kind of vicious circle. And there's no one who resists it. There aren't many who'll say, "Yeah we're getting offers all over the place but we haven't taken any, aren't we awesome!?".
- So I suppose it just ends with the adults taking care of the threats.
Yeah. Whats worst is how companies or the media or festivals who were never interested in visual kei before are suddenly reaching out. In this genre, even if it's said that the music industry is in a slump, the numbers stay the same. The demographic is pretty fixed, so CDs are easier to sell compared to other genres, and the numbers are easier to predict. I guess that's why they pretend that they're "adopting new styles", and reach out like that. It honestly makes me want to say, "But you weren't even interested in visual kei before were you?". Even someone like me can tell that the money problems are getting desperate.
- The adults are to blame for only looking at the immediate future, but so are the bands who are so easily swayed. Is that what you want to say?
Yeah. But I'm not sure. After being around for 15 years we can be all self-important and say "Ahh it's so boring", but if the positions were reversed and we were trying to start a band now we'd probably be thinking about it a lot. The real problem is that there aren't many people left (laugh). And what should our music sound like? Though rather than thinking "What should we do?", it's better to just do what you really want to. And if it clashes with someone else, then you can't help that. Instead of copying someone else, just have fun doing what you love. I think that's what it is. It feels like fun is lacking lately. Like, all you have to do is use your head a little. I feel like if you're only using your head from the start, everything gets kind of compacted. Though I guess if you can get there by the shortest distance then that's good. When you end up somewhere after you've done so many different things, even if it felt like a roundabout way, I think that's the shortest in the end. And it's different for every band. Luna Sea playing Tokyo Dome when they were so young was the shortest way for them, and us taking nine years to play Budokan and 15 years to get where we are now was also the shortest way.
- So until you reach that place you won't know what your shortest distance would be?
Yeah. For instance, SID played at Budokan three years after their debut I think it was? That might sound fast, but if you go by Mao-kun as just one musician, it took him a really long time to get there. But then wasn't the time necessary? It was the shortest way including that time. So you have to make your move understanding that. Trying to make a band understand that is impossible though. Actually I really love idiots who wouldn't understand that even if I explained it to them (laugh). I would like there to be more idiotic bands like that. This conversation would go right over their heads. I'd like it if they went, "What are you talking about? I don't really get it, but as long as we're awesome who cares?".
- You're definitely not trying to be one of those lecturing old guys are you.
Nope (laugh). I'm just saying it would be a lot funner for me if there were more bands like that.
- But have you ever thought, "Stop pushing your old way of doing things on me" when your sempais said something like that to you?
Um...even if I did think that for a second, when I went on stage with them I would think "They really are amazing!", and their sound would make me understand. And there wasn't actually anyone who told it to me that simply while we were eating or drinking together or something. Ao-san (cali≠gari) has said a lot of things in interviews and stuff, but he never told me anything like that directly. Their sound just beat it into me. Like, "How should we smack down these energetic kouhais" (laugh). And we bit into it as hard as we could. I think that contributed to our good relationship.
- So there aren't any kouhai who you can torment like that now?
There aren't. Ones that I can think "I'm gonna beat you bloody". Like how a father lion would push the baby lion off a hill and wait for him to climb back up (laugh). I want to be able to do something like that. A while ago when it was decided we would have a two-man show with another band, one of the production guys said to me, "This band is kind of starting to stagnate, so do you think you could seriously just beat them up without them catching on?". So I thought that even though we had been getting along well, I'd go at it intending to smash them to pieces. So after we finished our set they'd be thinking, "I don't want to go on after them!". That would be the key. Thinking about the setlist and stuff with that in mind was just so much fun (laugh).
- You really do have a good personality, Tatsuro-san.
Hahaha! But, you need to get each other fired up like that. I think that's what those events are for. Not just to attract more people. We had to do it so they'd end up regretting inviting us. When we were younger we had tons of fun at those events too. The other performers were all huge bands, and when we were the first ones up it was really fun to just do it and run off.
- Though as you get older it becomes less acceptable to just do it and run off.
Yeah. But what I hate the most are people who try to get the best part and say, "I want to go first" even in an event where it's obvious that it won't go as well unless they go last. I just think that's petty. And I feel bad for the band that has to go last. So whenever we're in an event and we think it's a situation where we should go last, we'll be honest and go last.
- Since the ranks have already been decided, so you're confident that you can claim an overwhelming victory?
And I don't want to be petty about that kind of thing. I've noticed that kind of pettiness show up on Twitter every once in a while. So sometimes I'll see it just glare at it (laugh).
- You're really going after them, huh. Even though you're a "good guy at heart" (laugh). [From his Twitter profile] But you understand your own position, so you're able to adapt to the situation from there.
That's true. Out of these 15 years, the past two...or should I say since I turned 30, everything has been so fun. Making music is fun, and being able to do so many different things. The balance between what I want to do, what I can do, and what I want to do is just right. And I think we're in the perfect position as a band. We can hang out with the younger bands, and we're at the point where our sempais are inviting us to things too. People from completely different genres are even starting to say, "I wouldn't mind playing with someone else if it's MUCC". It's a position that I'm really grateful to be in.
- I don't think it was luck that earned you that position.
I guess it's because we actually went out and did so many things. Since we took so much time to do it. Putting it simply, at first MUCC t-shirts didn't sell at all. Though it was like that for everyone in visual kei. But we kept making them every time, and people started buying them once it became an established thing, and as a result towels and t-shirts started to go along with the lives. Also, I figured that if other genres wouldn't have anything to do with us, we should create our own weird, non-genre event. Then it spread as more and more people willingly participated. I suppose we're where we are now because we kept doing things like that. So that's definitely not luck.
- And you probably weren't calculating the result those actions would have.
It wasn't really calculated. It was a simple thing. If no one invites us then we'll do the inviting. We never thought about what effect it would have. If we had fun, the other bands participating had fun, and the fans enjoyed it, then that's all that mattered. The one thing we did think about when planning an event was to only invite bands who really made us feel threatened. And that were in a completely different genre. For most of the fans it would be their first time seeing that band, but if they had an amazing performance it would make us think, "Crap, we have to go on after them!". It's that speechless nervousness and the, "We really did it this time" sort of feeling that I love more than anything else (laugh). It's not anything special though, it's just what we always saw cali≠gari doing. At Tokyo Chikatestu we saw them planning for bands that would completely eat them up. Which is why we wanted our "En" to be the same thing. Like when we first invited Cockroach, it was amazing. Naturally we had them go first, and since no one had seen them before it was pretty quiet. But the ones who sold the most CDs that day was Cockroach.
- So you want more of that sense of danger?
I really do. There's not enough of it. For better or worse, a lot of visual kei fans are pretty straight-forward and one-minded, and I just think I would like them to look at different things and listen to different types of music as well. Because if they do that and still say they like MUCC, then that makes us even happier. We won't be able to spread farther if we don't go about it in that way. What's so good about the bands I like. Isn't it better to realize it that way? It's just like, "Isn't our ramen the best? Theirs is pretty good too, but it's a little different isn't it?".
- I understand. And I think that since the young bands aren't rising to the front, there's not much room at the top.
Yeah. There are still so many sempais (laugh). Though the number of kouhais isn't increasing either. It's like no matter how much time goes by we're still in the middle. I keep thinking, won't everyone just hurry up and go away (laugh). But the sempais who are left have so much vitality. Seriously, there's no one but monsters left (laugh). If you want to work your way into the middle of all of these monsters, then the only thing to do is become a monster yourself. Because there are so many people who are like a thorn in our side. So we also want to become a thorn in the sides of our kouhai.
- Right above MUCC at the moment are monsters and resurrected zombies.
Yeah. And zombies can't die again. So that's our problem (laugh). Then at the same time, the kouhai who have the power to come at us....it's not like there aren't any, but there definitely aren't very many.
- Do you ever feel like you should spur them on somehow?
Not really. Because the fact that you'd need someone to do that for you is pretty bad. It would have to be a natural occurence. So I think if I found a band that I thought was good I'd probably tell them, "Even if you get offers you shouldn't tie yourself to anyone" (laugh). You can take care of yourselves for a while. Until a certain point you can get by without relying on the adults. Though if an event planner needed someone I would invite them, but I think you should do what you can by yourself, and find out how far you can go on your own. I think it's safe to say that there aren't many companies now who are willing to help bands grow. They'll help them sell, but not grow. So I think that to an extent, bands should help themselves grow, or they'll fail.
- But I think that people were recruiting bands early in any generation, so to some extent it's probably the same things all over again.
Yeah. And the only reason we were unique was because we stuck with cali≠gari. We couldn't be too similar or too different. Since it was a community of guys from different genres who didn't fit into any of them. I think the fact that we grew in that environment while watching sempais like cali≠gari was really important. If we had joined one of the companies that things like this happen to visual kei bands in, I think things would have been a lot different. That's where we're the luckiest. So basically being born in Ibaraki (laugh). There was cali≠gari, and La Vie En Rose, who's a year older than us. Then there was us and Cockroach. There are a lot of weird bands from Ibaraki.
- It's not right next to Tokyo, but it's not that far from it either. That distance might also have something to do with it.
Maybe. There's a lot of nature, but since it is pretty close to Tokyo, the sempais who moved their base to Tokyo would still come back every once in a while. And they would show us Tokyo's influence. But since their base was in Tokyo, they never clumped together at home. That probably had an impact too. I was suprised the first time I saw cali≠gari at Shinjuku Loft, and I thought, "If there are ten bands in Tokyo, there are ten different styles". Though if I really think about it, it was just because it was cali≠gari's event (laugh). So that was our foundation. Naturally cali≠gari came at us with all their power, so the only thing we could do was bite into it with all we had.
- So MUCC has it's strength now because of those roots.
And of course we're a bunch of weird members. Just guys with strong personalities. We did a good job getting members like this together from backcountry place like Ibaraki. I guess it's fate.
- That was a good punchline right there don't you think?
Yeah (laugh). Like, what would I call it if not fate. I guess this is the one instance I do believe in fate.
- The conversation has come together beautifully, but I would like to talk a little more about "now". You changed labels and released two singles, so I suppose a new album is in the works?
The work has actually been pretty fun lately. The lyrics are a little more funny. Lately since I've had more time to work on them, the songs are more individual. There are more playful songs especially. For some reason my head is clearer now while writing lyrics compared to when we were working on "Karma". Like I've become more mischievous.
- I think that's probably because you've already established what MUCC should be. So you don't have to keep aiming for something like that.
Yeah. So I want to keep biting into it a little longer. Sometimes when I listen to songs I wrote when I was 24 or 25, I feel like my choice of words and general outlook was sharper. Like I was irritated by something. But I think that's something rock should have. And with MUCC now I can add some fun to that irritation, and do a lot more with the songs themselves. I think the album will have that sense of fun stuffed into it as well. Though there's really nothing I'm irritated with at the moment (laugh). And I don't think there's anything wrong with that kind of atmosphere or way of thinking. The way of thinking we have because we're young, and the atmosphere we can create because we're where we are now. It'd be great we can make an album that meshes and balances those two things.
- Since there aren't many young bands trying to pull you down, do you feel like you might as well stay young yourselves?
Well, I want to stay strong. Becase we're letting the thorns in our sides above us know more and more that we can take them on, so I think they need to do the same thing. That's why it's fun. Where we are now is so fun. We have a lot of weapons we can use.
- And we're all looking forward to the festival on June 9th to celebrate your 15th anniversary.
I honestly just want to have fun. It'd be great if it ends up being a live where the fans are constantly thinking excitedly, "I wonder what's coming next?". It should be filled with a lot of tricks and excitement anyway. Since it's not tied to an album, and there should be plenty of volume. Also because it's our 15th anniversary, we're splitting it into three parts of five years each. We aren't planning on going in chronological order either, and the intervals in between won't be just filled with waiting. Then, after our 15th anniversary live, where do we go from here. That's what I'm really looking forward to now.