All Graces

[badsede]

I'm sure that many of you have heard the news that 5 cardinals have petitioned the Pope to make an ex cathedra pronouncement declaring a fifth Marian dogma, that Mary is Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces.

annabellissima and I spent yestserday evening doing a bunch of web-reading on the subject. We're both ok with the title of Co-Redemptrix when

Comments

[tiwonge]

Judas and Pontius Pilate become co-Redeemers, too, then?

[badsede]

They did not participate, they were just there, and I think that is the essential difference. They were not "with" the Redeemer, they were against Him. I think that just because God's infinite mercy can turn evil to good does not make that evil actually a good thing. Likewise, though God may make use of the evil or neutral acts of those not cooperating with Him, it does not qualify as "Co-" in *the* or a redemption.

[yechezkiel]

I largely agree with your analysis, and I have a few notes of my own I'd like to add: take them or leave them as you wish.

I think the problem with the titles mentioned, in regards to ecumenicalism with the Orthodox would be two-fold. The first problem would be a general reticence among Orthodox about new dogma that would be exacerbated by a pope doing it outside an Ecumenical Council. The second problem would be that the titles, if understood in a way like how you do, here, wouldn't be much of a problem, but the logic leading to them and the form of the titles themselves would be kind of alien. While it wouldn't take 400 years to articulate a clear position this time (a fully-developed Orthodox rejection of the filioque unless it was understood as "through the Son" happened only during the controversies following Lyon, the Photian objections were largely polemical), it would be very difficult and rejected by pretty much all non-theologians. Benedict himself seems to favor a more concillar vision of the Church in some of his works,

[badsede]

It seems to me that among the non-anti-Roman (dashes for everyone!!) Orthodox, the problems with the Marian dogmas are really not about Marian theology, but about the central sticking point, papal authority. (I continue to believe that the filioque was, is and will remain until the schism ends, a red herring.) An ex cathedra statement would just exacerbate this problem.

Benedict himself seems to favor a more concillar vision of the Church in some of his works, which means that--contra the poster in catholicism--I don't think he's liable to want to pull an "Ineffabilis Deus" on this one.

He does. The story goes that it was his influence that kept Ordinatio Sacerdotalis from being made ex cathedra, because it was clear (to them) from Holy Tradition that the Ordinary Megesterium had already spoken clearly, and to overlay the pope's extraordinary charism of infallibility would denigrate the Church's ordinary magesterium. I understand that he also once proposed that the Latin Church elevate some of her Patriarchs to *actual*

[canonfire]

I remember when Pope John Paul II was shopping this idea around and the rumor was that his theologians told him that basically this wasn't going to be a popular idea

[canonfire]

Oh, yeah. And the "All Graces" thing? No way.

[badsede]

And what about John the Baptizer's critical role in the Ministry of Jesus, linking the prophecy of the Old Covenant to the coming of the New? Does not he hold a Co-Redemptor status with heralding the coming of the Kingdom and baptizing Jesus? Is that not "technically", then, as well?

As I explained it, he certainly qualifies as one. However, I think the argument might be made that Mary's role was singular and thus that is why her role merits the title when the role of others may not. John the Baptist was not the only voice, mary was the only Theotokas.

but with such beliefs as the Ascension, I find that certain popes have gone too far.

Assumption?

I don't think that Benedict XVI is going to accept this one.

I really don't think he will either.

Don't assume anything...

[canonfire]

"Blessed among women"? Yes. Formally titled Co-Redemptrix? I think that's going too far. I've always thought that Theotokos was ballsy enough.

Assumption. *koff* yes.

[annabellissima]

I brought this up with Mike, Tom, John & Erika on Saturday night and Mike & Tom reacted with an explanation as if it was a no-brainer. But they just supplied the idea that because of the Incarnation being the source of ALL grace, and because of Mary's completely unique fiat & cooperation, she is the Mediatrix of ALL graces. Because all graces flowed into the world through Jesus, who came into the world through her womb.

Why is "Mediatrix" the only one without a "co-" in front of it?

[annabellissima]

I did ask, btw, if they thought the Incarnation was the source of all grace, and whether grace came from the Passion, etc. They said, "there would be no Passion without the Incarnation." Went further to say that there would be no Incarnation without Mary's yes. I oftentimes wonder if God would have "created" another Mary-type if Mary *had* said no. Not in a serious way, but more in a Turret's Syndrome kinda ponderance.