I think back-to-back 'John in peril' season-ending cliffhangers would have been a bit too much actually.
I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there.
Hee! I'm really glad you said this, because this is sort of my preference, too. I think there would have been some interesting drama and character development for Ivanova with the teeps onboard. I think I would have enjoyed seeing her interact with Byron, and what her views on him would have been.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding.I want this so bad it makes my heart hurt. Would it have been an Earth ceremony? A Minbari ceremony? Some hybrid of both? Maybe we could have seen John's sister
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I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
Eh, I don't think so. Most shows tend to do season-ending cliffhangers with the main characters in peril. It's a common enough trope that I don't think it would have been that big of a deal. Audiences always pretty much know everyone's going to make it out alive, so it's more about "how will they get out of this one?" which is always a fun way to spend the summer.
It had never actually occurred to me that we hadn't seen the wedding. Huh. Seriously, how did we miss that one? Now that I know I didn't get it I want it so much that my heart is hurting, too!
Earth-style or a mix. Undoubtedly with a tediously long Minbari ritual to repeat once they got to Minbar. I wrote it out for myself once. Sigh.
And yes, we didn't see near enough of Lizzie. I still think they did it before they left Earth space so John's Dad could attend. Why would they leave and have it on the way back? Hopefully someone found his Mum and let her come.
Lyta got Susan's role with Byron so it might have been a bit ick. Although she was so strung out and vulnerable I cannot almost see it if I squint.
I know a lot of people are all "This is so Prisoner," but JMS says he didn't really have it in mind--and I believe him. I think where people see The Prisoner is the mind-screw at the end. The fact that, just when you think you've achieved victory (even a small one) over The System, you find out The System anticipated your every move and has brought you back to square one. (cf. "Many Happy Returns" and "The Chimes of Big Ben") That's not unique to the mind of Patrick McGoohan. You can look at 1984 which preceded The Prisoner by a good 20 years.
I will probably have more to say later. Haven't rewatched it yet. But I do like this episode, from a staging point of view. The set, costumes, lighting, and sound are static, so the two actors have to pretty much carry the whole thing.
I think where people see The Prisoner is the mind-screw at the end.
THIS. The rest of the series is not like this episode at all, so the comparison is really pretty thin.
The comparison to Closet Land, on the other hand, is much, much stronger. Though even there, there are significant differences. It's been a while since I've seen it, so I'm not so clear on them anymore, but as I recall it was mostly psychological torture, so you didn't have the actual pain element. So much fucking with the head that the rest is unnecessary (and that the victim probably can't tell what was real anymore, which is where it always seems counterproductive to me). It's up on YouTube, or it was--last I checked, it was out of print--and it's worth seeing. Alan Rickman is utterly gorgeous in it--which is part of what makes it so disturbing.
I will certainly check out Closetland since Alan Rickman is on my short list as sexiest man ever. It's still up on YouTube as of this morning. Torture, I think, is always counterproductive, although someone, somewhere, always thinks it'll work 'this time'.
I know you talk about how dark this episode is, but I actually think it could have been darker?
Oh yes. It's dark, but it could've stood to go a step further. Or even just to hear after the fact, if he was recounting the experience to Delenn, exactly what he went through. Yes, I would've loved for this episode to "go there" just a little bit more.
I agree that more of Delenn would've been nice, but I'm not sure his vision of her didn't change the outcome of the interrogation. I interpret it as, he was just about to cave and sign the paper, and then there she was, giving him strength in a moment when he was about to give up.
I interpret it as, he was just about to cave and sign the paper, and then there she was, giving him strength in a moment when he was about to give up.
I agree, I think it's there...I just think it could have been more explicit. It's a nice sort of thought, that all he has to do is see her face, but I don't know. That moment falls a little flat for me. (I think dramatically, I just really love the whole "angel on one shoulder, demon on the other" trope, and all the ingredients are right there for it, but it never quite comes together.)
A different expression each time would have been nice. Beckoning, sad, wistful, something. Do you mean the demon would have been the interrogator? Garibaldi would have been nice in the role.
I often think about what Delenn thought, getting back to the station from the Starfire Wheel and John being gone to an obvious trap (I think that's right; that he'd left already). One damn thing after another with those two.
I also spent way too much time worrying about bodily functions, but that's a biology thing.
I've considered this as well. I think I resigned myself to the fact that I did not want to think about it; that the cell had cement walls and floor and a drain for a reason and being a POW means sometimes you get to sit in your own stuff for awhile, until they come in and hose the room down. Plus they cleared out his system pretty early on with the poison (they hadn't fed him for three days prior to that, and then he basically emptied himself of anything that might be left) so biologically wouldn't he have reached a point where he no longer had anything to expel? (I may be wrong. Biology was not my strong suit.)
This is a popular area for fic, especially of the h/c variety.True fax. This episode has spawned more plot bunnies than I care to think about
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I can work with the hosing down (get out of there, mind!) but the clothes...he wears the same clothes. They wouldn't undress and dress him, would they?
I was relieved to notice this time they had an IV drip for hydration. What? I worry!
I know :( I try so hard not to think about that. Less about the pants and shirt but more on the socks and underwear subject. Poor John :(
On that note, though, I've read a couple of Bruce interviews about the filming of this ep, and he kinda thought it was pretty sweet to be able to eat lunch and not have to worry about getting food on his wardrobe. He could just do whatever! Eat like a slob! Which... makes me LOL, and I'm not sure why.
I've been thinking on an alternate S5 for a while now; like I said in my last post, the telepath storyline would've worked so much better with Ivanova than with anyone else. I like Lochley well enough, but she doesn't really get to be a character till Crusade.
As for Marcus, I think I'd leave him dead and have the characters mourn him more.
The telepath storyline was set up for Ivanova and I hate that she never got her full resolution. I don't know what was intended for Lyta if Susan had stayed, do you?
I like the idea of longer mourning for Marcus. We get to see very little of Lennier's feelings for example; it's all tied up with his feelings for Delenn. Also Stephen...yes, it would have been good, and a better send-off for Marcus.
the telepath storyline would've worked so much better with Ivanova than with anyone else.
Yes. I would have loved to see what kind of character evolution came out of her being around Byron. Would she have helped him? Would she have found him to be an ass? Would she have fallen for him? or not? If she was sympathetic to him, how would it have affected her relationship with Garibaldi? Sheridan? So many possibilities!
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I had considered this, too. I wonder if there is a happy medium - could they have ended S4 at The Face of the Enemy, maybe? But then that leaves things uncertain for both Garibaldi and Sheridan, which is preeeetty much where we were at the end of Z'ha'dum. Maybe a little too much redundancy there.
I wouldn't have left out the telepaths in S5. In fact I'd rather lose Lochley and keep Susan than lose Byron. So there.
Hee! I'm really glad you said this, because this is sort of my preference, too. I think there would have been some interesting drama and character development for Ivanova with the teeps onboard. I think I would have enjoyed seeing her interact with Byron, and what her views on him would have been.
God, it would have been nice to see the wedding.I want this so bad it makes my heart hurt. Would it have been an Earth ceremony? A Minbari ceremony? Some hybrid of both? Maybe we could have seen John's sister ( ... )
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Eh, I don't think so. Most shows tend to do season-ending cliffhangers with the main characters in peril. It's a common enough trope that I don't think it would have been that big of a deal. Audiences always pretty much know everyone's going to make it out alive, so it's more about "how will they get out of this one?" which is always a fun way to spend the summer.
It had never actually occurred to me that we hadn't seen the wedding. Huh. Seriously, how did we miss that one? Now that I know I didn't get it I want it so much that my heart is hurting, too!
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I wrote it out for myself once. Sigh.
And yes, we didn't see near enough of Lizzie. I still think they did it before they left Earth space so John's Dad could attend. Why would they leave and have it on the way back? Hopefully someone found his Mum and let her come.
Lyta got Susan's role with Byron so it might have been a bit ick. Although she was so strung out and vulnerable I cannot almost see it if I squint.
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I will probably have more to say later. Haven't rewatched it yet. But I do like this episode, from a staging point of view. The set, costumes, lighting, and sound are static, so the two actors have to pretty much carry the whole thing.
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Exactly. And they both do an excellent job.
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THIS. The rest of the series is not like this episode at all, so the comparison is really pretty thin.
The comparison to Closet Land, on the other hand, is much, much stronger. Though even there, there are significant differences. It's been a while since I've seen it, so I'm not so clear on them anymore, but as I recall it was mostly psychological torture, so you didn't have the actual pain element. So much fucking with the head that the rest is unnecessary (and that the victim probably can't tell what was real anymore, which is where it always seems counterproductive to me). It's up on YouTube, or it was--last I checked, it was out of print--and it's worth seeing. Alan Rickman is utterly gorgeous in it--which is part of what makes it so disturbing.
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Oh yes. It's dark, but it could've stood to go a step further. Or even just to hear after the fact, if he was recounting the experience to Delenn, exactly what he went through. Yes, I would've loved for this episode to "go there" just a little bit more.
I agree that more of Delenn would've been nice, but I'm not sure his vision of her didn't change the outcome of the interrogation. I interpret it as, he was just about to cave and sign the paper, and then there she was, giving him strength in a moment when he was about to give up.
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I agree, I think it's there...I just think it could have been more explicit. It's a nice sort of thought, that all he has to do is see her face, but I don't know. That moment falls a little flat for me. (I think dramatically, I just really love the whole "angel on one shoulder, demon on the other" trope, and all the ingredients are right there for it, but it never quite comes together.)
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I often think about what Delenn thought, getting back to the station from the Starfire Wheel and John being gone to an obvious trap (I think that's right; that he'd left already). One damn thing after another with those two.
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I've considered this as well. I think I resigned myself to the fact that I did not want to think about it; that the cell had cement walls and floor and a drain for a reason and being a POW means sometimes you get to sit in your own stuff for awhile, until they come in and hose the room down. Plus they cleared out his system pretty early on with the poison (they hadn't fed him for three days prior to that, and then he basically emptied himself of anything that might be left) so biologically wouldn't he have reached a point where he no longer had anything to expel? (I may be wrong. Biology was not my strong suit.)
This is a popular area for fic, especially of the h/c variety.True fax. This episode has spawned more plot bunnies than I care to think about ( ... )
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I was relieved to notice this time they had an IV drip for hydration. What? I worry!
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I know :( I try so hard not to think about that. Less about the pants and shirt but more on the socks and underwear subject. Poor John :(
On that note, though, I've read a couple of Bruce interviews about the filming of this ep, and he kinda thought it was pretty sweet to be able to eat lunch and not have to worry about getting food on his wardrobe. He could just do whatever! Eat like a slob! Which... makes me LOL, and I'm not sure why.
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As for Marcus, I think I'd leave him dead and have the characters mourn him more.
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I like the idea of longer mourning for Marcus. We get to see very little of Lennier's feelings for example; it's all tied up with his feelings for Delenn. Also Stephen...yes, it would have been good, and a better send-off for Marcus.
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Yes. I would have loved to see what kind of character evolution came out of her being around Byron. Would she have helped him? Would she have found him to be an ass? Would she have fallen for him? or not? If she was sympathetic to him, how would it have affected her relationship with Garibaldi? Sheridan? So many possibilities!
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Susan would help anyone who was trying to escape Bester and the Corps. She'd have been into it up to her neck.
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