(Untitled)

[birchswinger3]

In our society, is it possible for black people to be racist or women to be sexist [victimizing whites and men, respectively]?
[can men experience sexism from women, whites from blacks (in US society)? is this whole idea of reverse-racism valid?]No

Comments

[patriciotaketwo]

i went to a show last night wehre the subject of one of the songs WAS this rant; i loved it. find me and ill play the song for you/show you the lyrics. also, talk to me about what is currently being called 'white group'--i'll explain.

[birchswinger3]

'tis awesome! i want to post these lyrics because they are so exactly what i'm thinking about. will you send me song title or lyrics link?
:O)

[patriciotaketwo]

http://www.riotfolk.revolt.org/member_music_lyrics.php?id=8&song_id=151

[birchswinger3]

Oh, I completely agree it's not a clear dichotomy or spectrum... rather more like those political grid things we did in gov, only out into a bazillion dimensions. Gender seems a lot less like a gradient, at least on the surface, but they're both just examples trying to help discuss/illustrate that, despite individual bubbles or instances of specific power/discrimination dynamics, there are underlying power dynamics and structures that imbue the whole society. We have to look at it all in context rather than in isolation

[birchswinger3]

unrelated p.s.- all your food-pics are gorgeous! i'm tremendously impressed!

[teriden]

Ahh, I see what you're saying, though that first statement isn't quite true the way you've written it. Yes, sexism (or racism) is not just an individual's behavior, but a feature of culture, but a woman can still follow it, and thus be sexist. (For instance, a mother might not want her daughter to get an education, because she feels it's the role of a woman to maintain the household and raise children instead.) It's not just the people on top who enforce these systems, it takes a certain amount of complacency from those being kept down.

But, yes-- gender roles/racial discrimination are old social standards, and are different from one's personal views of other perceived groups--though they can have a big influence on what one's views are in the first place.

^^; Yee, pardon me, your intro up there just bugged me a little. Zoot.

[birchswinger3]

ohh, i see what you're saying. super-valid observation, and i completely wasn't clear. people can definitely be self-oppressive, or oppressive of others in the same group, by buying into or helping to enforce the system. but i meant that cases of 'sexism' with women discriminating against men are discrimination but not sexism, for this -ism stuff is a one-way power structure and systemically-oppressive thing.
hm,
agreed, the beginning is fuzzy/unclear, but the thoughts are still even drabbly/unclear in my mind...
:)

[foxfour]

i disagree with the last two items.

re: condi, it's entirely possible that she's being herself (though that's a depressing thought). that gets at the self-oppression teriden mentions, though another alternative that she sees buying into a white-male power structure as the only way to advance her own, personal power.

re: labels. there certainly exists self-labelling. it is empirically true. also, while it is true that labels can be stupid, they can also be useful psychologically, for giving one a group of belonging. humans aren't psychologically adept at identifying with all of humanity. most people cannot model the minds of more than about 150 people at any given period in their life, hence any social group much lager than that will get subcultures and labels.

but the top, the top i really agree with.

[birchswinger3]

condi: that is indeed a very depressing thought, though possible. but if she is buying into the white male power structure as a way to advance her own personal power, than her own ideals and motives toward which she wants to employ that power are identical to their ideals. it seems to me that she has relinquished some of her own roots at some point in the formation of those ideals, and bought into the systemic ideology at least a little

[smashingpopcorn]

i'd note that while context counts, that context isn't necessarily society at large. if you're white and you work in a corporation where everyone else is black, and you get treated like poo because you're white, how is that not racist?

ps. wtf, mate? condoleeza rice is a frighteningly intelligent person entirely on her own. if she chooses to rise to power within the system, great for her - but i don't think that 'making the role reflective of her identity and self' means she should somehow make it black and female. that's as entrapping as any other view o_0 she takes the role according to who she is and how she works, not that she's black and a woman.

[birchswinger3]

i think a white person working in a black corporation could certainly have a seemingly whole, large system working against him or her within the corporation, and could surely experience discrimination