You already know how I feel about a bulk of this. I knew no one was safe after he killed off Tosh, which to be honest, affected me much more than Ianto but then I indentified with Tosh. Uh, not with her crush on Owen but in other ways ;)
And really, he set the premise for killing off main characters with Suzie. Remember Suzie?
Pssst! RTD interview. (I recommend avoiding the comments)
Yeah, I mentioned Suzie in my post. And for some reason, maybe because I was accidentally spoiled already, and because there was such heavy foreshadowing in COE, I found Ianto's death very sad, but it had a little less emotional impact than Tosh and Owen's death at the end of season 2. That surprised me, but I blame it on the spoiler issue, because I liked Ianto (although I was not, and never have been, a Jack-and-anyone shipper. I like Jack to be the big ole slut that he is and always has been. I think the "Janto" fans are on crack if they think there was a Grand Love there between Jack and Ianto. Ianto may have been in love, but I think a big part of Jack's reaction at the end is guilt over the way he didn't/couldn't really give Ianto what he wanted. I'm not saying he didn't love Ianto, in his own fashion. But it's not in Jack's nature to settle down for long. He's tried it in the past, and it didn't work out. I never got the idea that Ianto was anything more than a convenient, enjoyable fuck, and even in COE, I thought Jack's more
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HA. I must have been nodding my head so hard, I missed it.
But it's not in Jack's nature to settle down for long.
No, not really and until he made peace with the Doctor in S3 of Who, he was actively trying to get back to him which is one of the many reasons I thought he was keeping it casual with Ianto. That and he was still seeing other, er, things. You gotta love Torchwood for being able to use that word and have it not be derogatory.
All I can say is good for him. I think he's spot on, calling out the idiots who are accusing him on homophobia, or cleaning up "the gay" for BBC1. Because they are idiots.I know. I loved it. The idea that RTD is trying to push some sort of anti-gay/heternormative (lol that word in connection with RTD) agenda makes me laugh and want to cry at the same time. How do you get that because a gay writer killed a gay character he's homophobic? Besides, wasn't he pushing teh gay just a few seasons ago? LOL fandom
( ... )
Yes, I went to see David in Hamlet and Love's Labour's Lost because I wanted to support the RSC. That's not working for you is it?
Of course it is! I mean, I knew the only reason you were going to see DT was because of your deep love for Shakespeare's work, as performed by the RSC. And had I managed to get the time off, I would have been there, too, for the exact same reason! Arty, I am!
If you're going to be a fangirl/fanboy, embrace it and own up to it! As you pointed out, wrapping it up in some cause is ridiculous and transparent. Exactly. Of course, DT isn't gay, so by being a DT fan, you aren't pretending that you're actively involved in supporting the gay community and gay civil rights issues simply because you're stalking - er, I mean forking out cash to see him perform and adding to the viewer count for his TV shows. Nope, you're just showing your innate good taste in men and actors
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Yes! *Joins you in the grumpy corner* I've had it up to here with people going on about how RTD "killed the gay character", as though there's only one way to look at Ianto's death, or the themes in CoE as a whole. I think RTD answered his critics perfectly:
We’re talking about issues in my entire life here, not just one small television program. If they did research they’d go and look at the history of gay and lesbian characters that I have put on screen. They should simply grow up, do some research, and stop riding on a bandwagon that they actually don’t know anything about.
Yep, exactly. (see my response to larissa above). These people don't care anything about gay rights or gay issues. All they care about is feeding their fantasies about m/m sex.
I'm curious, are you from the UK? Because it seems to me that (larissa excepted!) most of the people who actually understood and enjoyed COE are from the UK. You guys can't be THAT much smarter than we are, lol!
*LOL* I'm originally from New Zealand, although I moved to Australia in the late 70's. My childhood was very Brit-influenced, but not so much in later years (although with Pros I find myself being swept back into that milleu all the time).
There may be something in the way RTD valourises working-class people, and co-opts a particular style of cynicism about government into his writing, that makes it easier for Brits (and close relatives) to "get" what he's saying. I don't know - I have seen quite a few "Wah!" posts from that side of the Atlantic too, so it can't be universal (and I found a great post by a New Yorker, here).
Thanks for the link. Very interesting, and I agree with a lot of her comments. It's nice to see someone point out how offensive some of the crap these "fans" are spewing out is.
I have one question for the Brits among us, though, and you qualify!
What was with the comment Gwen made, near the beginning of the series, when she was talking to Rhys, and she made a joke about how they could just "adopt a Philipino" child and have it clean the chimney??? I absolutely do not think that RTD or any of his writers are racist - the casts of DW and TW looks like a campaign ad for diversity - and I can't think of any reason he'd try to make Gwen look like a racist. So why that comment? I mean, I thought Gwens little jokes about leaving Wales and going to England were funny, and probably an insider joke for the Welsh members of the cast and crew. But I don't get the Phillipino comment. It was kind of jarring. Any opinion?
Is this daughter of Jack's his first and only child? And then Steven his only grandchild? In all the years he has liven with his omnisexual self. It is a curious thought
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Reply Part IblkandwhtcatJuly 26 2009, 20:21:32 UTC
Hi Ahavia. Don't cry - it's just a TV show! But I think it's proof of what a wonderful writer and artist RTD is, that he can create characters his viewers love and mourn as if they are real. That takes talent, and despite the over-the-top crazies, I think RTD is rightly pleased about the intense emotions COE aroused among viewers.
Is this daughter of Jack's his first and only child? And then Steven his only grandchild?
In the interviews with RTD and cast that aired after each of the 5 episodes of COE, RTD noted that Jack, being the sexual buccaneer that he is, probably had fathered hundreds of children over the years he'd lived, but this was a time to focus on one of them. It makes sense to me, given Jack's sexual appetites.
How many others had he loved in that oh so long life of his, and lost? The way he cried when Ianto died, it did not seem like this was a routine event for him. Ianto seemed like more then a regular fuck for Jack. At best, he enjoyed Ianto. And was trying to protect himself from future hurt when he would
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Reply Part IIblkandwhtcatJuly 26 2009, 20:21:55 UTC
Ianto is not the first person Jack has loved, or his first lover who has died. I thought their relationship seemed rather casual. It may well be that he was trying to keep from caring too much, since he knows he'll outlive Ianto. I think that's a reasonable explanation, because he's experienced that pain so many times before. When Ianto dies, I think we're supposed to see that Jack cared very much for Ianto, and his realization that his attempts to limit his emotional involement does not lessen his pain at the loss.
I was thinking tehat TW could not go on, ,ut maybe it can. Jack would have to come back.
Of course TW can go on without Ianto, just as it went on after Suzie, Tosh and Owen died. But of course Jack will come back. He IS TW. (And it's not as if he hasn't run off before. Remember season 2 started out with Jack gone, because he'd chased after the Doctor and was off adventuring with him).
BTW, I just read that TW has been picked up for a fourth season. Excellent!
I am not in the anti-Gwen camp.Good. I find the Gwen-
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Yes! Thank you! Yes, and yes, and yes! You're definitely not the only person on my flist to think like this, but it's so nice to see this kind of TW post rather than the whining of people who, as you say, just don't seem to have got it...
Interesting that you're identifying US fans as the majority of whingers - that does tend to bear out from my flist (and links from there) but I was putting that down to an imbalance in TW fans (US vs UK) on my flist rather than anything else... I wonder though (don't shoot me, anyone, I'm just wondering!) if some of the cultural references that were integral to the plot in TW maybe didn't make enough of a leap for the US audience? For example, the whole sacrifice-the-children issue was made minor to me compared to the use-the-league-tables-to-choose-them aspect, because we've had years of that league table/SATs crap now (and the SATs here aren't like US SATs). It wasn't just a convenient plot point to choose 10%, it was a massive social comment, and not knowing the references/emotions involved
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As you say, people are more concerned with losing Jack/Ianto (which doesn't have to be lot anyway, that's what fanfic's for!) I absolutely love Jack/Ianto, but that's because Ianto was my favourite character to start with - the others were a bit obvious, a bit in my face, even quiet-Toshiko, whereas we only got glimpses of Ianto in the first few eps, enough to make me wonder why, and then I adored the darkness of Cybergirl and the way Ianto had to deal with that, and would have to deal with everyone afterwards - and the fact that Jack kept him on rather than retconning him. It all went so much deeper than Gwen's "I've got no one to talk to" affair with Owen, etc etc, and so when we got hints of any kind of Jack/Ianto after that, never mind a sexual relationship, I thought it was ace, and I wanted to know more - I was fascinated by the characters together. Same as Bodie/Doyle, in a way - I'm fascinated by how the characters react to each other and the world, by how their relationship manages to deal with everything - or not. I've never
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and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him. No, I don't either - plus it'd be totally impractical, cos as you say, he's effectively immortal. But I can go with Ianto being the guy that he loves right now - in the same way that he loved Estelle in that "right now". Maybe that's why I'm less shattered by Ianto's death in the overall storyline than the shippers - I'm happy enough to see the overall thousands of thousands of years of life of The Face of Boe, and to know that Ianto can't possibly be with him all that time. To me that's all part of the story. And I can have fanfic to find out more about Jack/Ianto in their own "right now"I've read some fanfic, and I've not really seen either of the scenarios that you've suggested - though maybe I've just managed to avoid it... *g* I think any fic hyping up the emotions in the way you've described is onto a loser as far as I'm concerned though, so not my kind of soppy thing. (I'd highly
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I thought it was a fair development that Ianto was beginning to be weirded out when people saw them as a couple - because he probably knew Jack wouldn't have been, because their relationship could never be as a normal "couple", and if Ianto wasn't even out to his family then I can imagine him still sort of trying to deal with that sort of thing... And then I can see in the trauma of dying, having lost pretty much everything else, he'd perhaps be a bit clingy at the idea that his life would effectively have been meaningless if Jack forgot him - that he'd not left anything behind of import to the world, that maybe if Jack remembered him it'd mean he had been something more than a "tea boy" who shagged the boss now and then... To me, that was the bit that was sad enough... And of course, he didn't tell Ianto back that he loved him... now there's heartbreak and a huge part of the story, right there...
But then I'm not convinced that Jack's been drooling over Gwen since day one either - I think he thinks he has, perhaps, because that
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I love your comments here - and took the liberty of friending you, because how can I resist someone (else) who loves both Lymond and Captain Jack Harkness?
I agree about the similarities between Jack and Lymond, and the plot of Pawn in Frankincense compared to COE - after all, how many heroes kill blond, blue-eyed boys who are near blood relatives whom they love?
And yes, I see this as all part of Jack's "hero's journey", and a fascinating one it is.
Yes, we're hearing a lot of fans upset with RTD, but it's a sign of the strength of the story. Personally I loved COE as it was.
Especially Jack.
And count me as another fan who was more upset by the death of Tosh than of Ianto.
Comments 24
And really, he set the premise for killing off main characters with Suzie. Remember Suzie?
Pssst! RTD interview. (I recommend avoiding the comments)
Reply
Reply
HA. I must have been nodding my head so hard, I missed it.
But it's not in Jack's nature to settle down for long.
No, not really and until he made peace with the Doctor in S3 of Who, he was actively trying to get back to him which is one of the many reasons I thought he was keeping it casual with Ianto. That and he was still seeing other, er, things. You gotta love Torchwood for being able to use that word and have it not be derogatory.
All I can say is good for him. I think he's spot on, calling out the idiots who are accusing him on homophobia, or cleaning up "the gay" for BBC1. Because they are idiots.I know. I loved it. The idea that RTD is trying to push some sort of anti-gay/heternormative (lol that word in connection with RTD) agenda makes me laugh and want to cry at the same time. How do you get that because a gay writer killed a gay character he's homophobic? Besides, wasn't he pushing teh gay just a few seasons ago? LOL fandom ( ... )
Reply
That's not working for you is it?
Of course it is! I mean, I knew the only reason you were going to see DT was because of your deep love for Shakespeare's work, as performed by the RSC. And had I managed to get the time off, I would have been there, too, for the exact same reason! Arty, I am!
If you're going to be a fangirl/fanboy, embrace it and own up to it! As you pointed out, wrapping it up in some cause is ridiculous and transparent. Exactly. Of course, DT isn't gay, so by being a DT fan, you aren't pretending that you're actively involved in supporting the gay community and gay civil rights issues simply because you're stalking - er, I mean forking out cash to see him perform and adding to the viewer count for his TV shows. Nope, you're just showing your innate good taste in men and actors ( ... )
Reply
We’re talking about issues in my entire life here, not just one small television program. If they did research they’d go and look at the history of gay and lesbian characters that I have put on screen. They should simply grow up, do some research, and stop riding on a bandwagon that they actually don’t know anything about.
Reply
I'm curious, are you from the UK? Because it seems to me that (larissa excepted!) most of the people who actually understood and enjoyed COE are from the UK. You guys can't be THAT much smarter than we are, lol!
Reply
There may be something in the way RTD valourises working-class people, and co-opts a particular style of cynicism about government into his writing, that makes it easier for Brits (and close relatives) to "get" what he's saying. I don't know - I have seen quite a few "Wah!" posts from that side of the Atlantic too, so it can't be universal (and I found a great post by a New Yorker, here).
Reply
I have one question for the Brits among us, though, and you qualify!
What was with the comment Gwen made, near the beginning of the series, when she was talking to Rhys, and she made a joke about how they could just "adopt a Philipino" child and have it clean the chimney??? I absolutely do not think that RTD or any of his writers are racist - the casts of DW and TW looks like a campaign ad for diversity - and I can't think of any reason he'd try to make Gwen look like a racist. So why that comment? I mean, I thought Gwens little jokes about leaving Wales and going to England were funny, and probably an insider joke for the Welsh members of the cast and crew. But I don't get the Phillipino comment. It was kind of jarring. Any opinion?
Reply
Reply
Is this daughter of Jack's his first and only child? And then Steven his only grandchild?
In the interviews with RTD and cast that aired after each of the 5 episodes of COE, RTD noted that Jack, being the sexual buccaneer that he is, probably had fathered hundreds of children over the years he'd lived, but this was a time to focus on one of them. It makes sense to me, given Jack's sexual appetites.
How many others had he loved in that oh so long life of his, and lost? The way he cried when Ianto died, it did not seem like this was a routine event for him. Ianto seemed like more then a regular fuck for Jack. At best, he enjoyed Ianto. And was trying to protect himself from future hurt when he would ( ... )
Reply
I was thinking tehat TW could not go on, ,ut maybe it can. Jack would have to come back.
Of course TW can go on without Ianto, just as it went on after Suzie, Tosh and Owen died. But of course Jack will come back. He IS TW. (And it's not as if he hasn't run off before. Remember season 2 started out with Jack gone, because he'd chased after the Doctor and was off adventuring with him).
BTW, I just read that TW has been picked up for a fourth season. Excellent!
I am not in the anti-Gwen camp.Good. I find the Gwen- ( ... )
Reply
Interesting that you're identifying US fans as the majority of whingers - that does tend to bear out from my flist (and links from there) but I was putting that down to an imbalance in TW fans (US vs UK) on my flist rather than anything else... I wonder though (don't shoot me, anyone, I'm just wondering!) if some of the cultural references that were integral to the plot in TW maybe didn't make enough of a leap for the US audience? For example, the whole sacrifice-the-children issue was made minor to me compared to the use-the-league-tables-to-choose-them aspect, because we've had years of that league table/SATs crap now (and the SATs here aren't like US SATs). It wasn't just a convenient plot point to choose 10%, it was a massive social comment, and not knowing the references/emotions involved ( ... )
Reply
Reply
and I certainly don't buy into any type of "one true love" nonsense when it comes to him.
No, I don't either - plus it'd be totally impractical, cos as you say, he's effectively immortal. But I can go with Ianto being the guy that he loves right now - in the same way that he loved Estelle in that "right now". Maybe that's why I'm less shattered by Ianto's death in the overall storyline than the shippers - I'm happy enough to see the overall thousands of thousands of years of life of The Face of Boe, and to know that Ianto can't possibly be with him all that time. To me that's all part of the story. And I can have fanfic to find out more about Jack/Ianto in their own "right now"I've read some fanfic, and I've not really seen either of the scenarios that you've suggested - though maybe I've just managed to avoid it... *g* I think any fic hyping up the emotions in the way you've described is onto a loser as far as I'm concerned though, so not my kind of soppy thing. (I'd highly ( ... )
Reply
But then I'm not convinced that Jack's been drooling over Gwen since day one either - I think he thinks he has, perhaps, because that ( ... )
Reply
I agree about the similarities between Jack and Lymond, and the plot of Pawn in Frankincense compared to COE - after all, how many heroes kill blond, blue-eyed boys who are near blood relatives whom they love?
And yes, I see this as all part of Jack's "hero's journey", and a fascinating one it is.
Yes, we're hearing a lot of fans upset with RTD, but it's a sign of the strength of the story. Personally I loved COE as it was.
Especially Jack.
And count me as another fan who was more upset by the death of Tosh than of Ianto.
Reply
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