On liking geek things while also being female.
So I was on FB, and krekdi had some videos up, one of which concerned the whole "FAKE GEEK GIRL" thing and another of which was related to it, and I kind of feel now like I want to make a rant about it. The second video, the one that really made me start off, was one that concerned how much the appearance of a girl, notably how pretty she is, influences people's expectations of her interests-pretty girls are much less likely to be assumed to like nerdy stuff, while plainer and less well-kempt girls are of course into it. It discussed what she termed "nerd shame" and why girls are often unwilling to admit to actually liking things like anime, comic books, video games, etc.
This isn't outside my experience-not at all. I'm kind of one of those frumpy girls, honestly, so usually no one really questions my liking geek stuff, but it's not hard for me to notice that as soon as I make an effort with my appearance for whatever reason, it's like no one expects me to be cerebral or to like anything remotely geeky or "for guys." BOTH of these-the not questioning it when I'm plain-looking and the not expecting it when I look nice-are based on the same stupid and insulting assumption: that genuine geek girls don't exist at all.
There's a basic idea still prevalent in much of geek subculture that girls are only into geeky things in order to attract guys, either to toy with them/exploit them or because they can't get guys any other way. Thus, frumpy/overweight/"unpretty" girls are of course into geek things (because how else will they get a guy with the way they look? /smh), and pretty girls must just be in it for the attention/whatever else they can get by trading on their looks, because they're already desirable so there's no reason for them to "prey" on geeky guys unless they're manipulative horrible creatures. It all boils down to the assertion that geek culture is only FOR guys, thus making it impossible for girls to actually be interested in it, so girls always have to have an "excuse" for "pretending" to be. The extra-insulting icing on the cake is that in making this assumption that there must be some other reason besides genuine interest for girls to be part of geek culture, guys assume that THEY must of course be that other reason, because girls' REAL interests and importance naturally revolve around THEM.
In some ways, it's like a really weird extension of the friendzoning concept, because it seems to come laced with this notion that pretty girls who venture into geek spaces owe the male nerds something, and are only tormenting them by withholding it. See how we put ourselves right in front of you, yet we're not slavering to have sex with you, even though we KNOW how seldom you have access to girls! LOL, we delight in being cruel, and also we know it means you'll do anything we want up until we dump you without ever actually putting out! For all the prevalence of this idea that geek guys are lucky to get the chance talk to girls, ever, they're just as dismissive of homely girls they might regularly encounter, and just as entitled when it comes to women's attention (if not more so) as non-geek guys.
A lot of girls I've known, myself included, have been reluctant to express interest in geeky things because it opens us up to value judgments and accusations of being desperate/manipulative/slutty, and that's not typically something that happens with boys. Boys might be teased or even bullied for being "losers," but at least they're still into something that's an accepted "boy" thing. Girls have nerd shame because guys legitimately can't accept that they have real interest in the first place and keep saying "GTFO our fan club, we know you're only here for US and not the actual fandom!" Girls get subjected to quizzing and derided for anything less than encyclopedic perfection. Guys with stunningly detailed cosplay are automatically assumed to be superlative fans, whereas girls with the same are generally assumed to be just showing off their bodies/trying to blend in without any actual appreciation for the source material. Even demonstrating knowledge and enthusiasm is written off as having been "coached" by one's male significant other, or as having done research to "seem more authentic." In my personal experience with competitive video games, where actual skill can't be denied as superficial cramming, I've had guys out-and-out disbelieve I'm a girl at all rather than accept that I'm good at "their" game, complaining that the guy actually controlling the game avatar should stop having his girlfriend pretend to be him on the headset.
And let me say, though the incident krekdi initially described in the second video was about a girl not wanting to admit to liking anime, my own experience is that the problem is way worse in the comic book and tabletop RPG fandoms. Of course, since anime is an incredibly varied category, the difference is mostly a case of people going, "Oh, sure, I know lots of girls that are into anime. You like yaoi and magical girls, right?" and being just as disbelieving when a girl expresses a preference for fighting-, philosophical-, or horror-based shows. As long as girls keep to their corner of anime fandom, it can be a little safer to admit to liking it. The same is true for video games, where people will assume girls to be into cute Wii games and the Sims. But dare to step into an arena where there's no preset, pre-packaged, acceptable girl niche, and good gods do the misogynists come out of the woodwork because this is THEIR TURF, YO.
The worst ones, though, are the ones who start off with, "Oh, I know some awesome girls who really are fans! It's just that most of them aren't! So you see, when I'm complaining about all those ~fake nerd girls, I'm not talking about all nerd girls, just the ones who're fake, who happen to be most of them! See, I'm not making blanket statements about girls! :D" No. Sit the fuck down. Saying you totes know ~legit nerd girls just makes you sound like those homophobic assholes who claim they of course can't be homophobic assholes because some of their best friends are gay.
I have a lot of feels about this topic, as might be pellucid at this point. A lot of strangely detailed, ranty feels. My understanding of geek culture was rose-tinted at first, when I was just discovering what it was and what it meant for my existing interests. Look, I said, here is a group of people who share detailed, off-brand interests, who are familiar with being lambasted for not conforming, who are a tight-knit community, who appreciate intellectualism! It will be awesome! Finding out that it's still a boys' club in many ways was not the best experience of my young life-certainly not the worst, but a pervasive disappointment.
Idk. Out of words, I think. It's just frustrating. I can't even get Jeremy to really appreciate why I no longer want to wear a headset when we play Halo together, or why I won't go into the local hobby store when a particular clerk is working.
krekdi. Feels. ;;
This isn't outside my experience-not at all. I'm kind of one of those frumpy girls, honestly, so usually no one really questions my liking geek stuff, but it's not hard for me to notice that as soon as I make an effort with my appearance for whatever reason, it's like no one expects me to be cerebral or to like anything remotely geeky or "for guys." BOTH of these-the not questioning it when I'm plain-looking and the not expecting it when I look nice-are based on the same stupid and insulting assumption: that genuine geek girls don't exist at all.
There's a basic idea still prevalent in much of geek subculture that girls are only into geeky things in order to attract guys, either to toy with them/exploit them or because they can't get guys any other way. Thus, frumpy/overweight/"unpretty" girls are of course into geek things (because how else will they get a guy with the way they look? /smh), and pretty girls must just be in it for the attention/whatever else they can get by trading on their looks, because they're already desirable so there's no reason for them to "prey" on geeky guys unless they're manipulative horrible creatures. It all boils down to the assertion that geek culture is only FOR guys, thus making it impossible for girls to actually be interested in it, so girls always have to have an "excuse" for "pretending" to be. The extra-insulting icing on the cake is that in making this assumption that there must be some other reason besides genuine interest for girls to be part of geek culture, guys assume that THEY must of course be that other reason, because girls' REAL interests and importance naturally revolve around THEM.
In some ways, it's like a really weird extension of the friendzoning concept, because it seems to come laced with this notion that pretty girls who venture into geek spaces owe the male nerds something, and are only tormenting them by withholding it. See how we put ourselves right in front of you, yet we're not slavering to have sex with you, even though we KNOW how seldom you have access to girls! LOL, we delight in being cruel, and also we know it means you'll do anything we want up until we dump you without ever actually putting out! For all the prevalence of this idea that geek guys are lucky to get the chance talk to girls, ever, they're just as dismissive of homely girls they might regularly encounter, and just as entitled when it comes to women's attention (if not more so) as non-geek guys.
A lot of girls I've known, myself included, have been reluctant to express interest in geeky things because it opens us up to value judgments and accusations of being desperate/manipulative/slutty, and that's not typically something that happens with boys. Boys might be teased or even bullied for being "losers," but at least they're still into something that's an accepted "boy" thing. Girls have nerd shame because guys legitimately can't accept that they have real interest in the first place and keep saying "GTFO our fan club, we know you're only here for US and not the actual fandom!" Girls get subjected to quizzing and derided for anything less than encyclopedic perfection. Guys with stunningly detailed cosplay are automatically assumed to be superlative fans, whereas girls with the same are generally assumed to be just showing off their bodies/trying to blend in without any actual appreciation for the source material. Even demonstrating knowledge and enthusiasm is written off as having been "coached" by one's male significant other, or as having done research to "seem more authentic." In my personal experience with competitive video games, where actual skill can't be denied as superficial cramming, I've had guys out-and-out disbelieve I'm a girl at all rather than accept that I'm good at "their" game, complaining that the guy actually controlling the game avatar should stop having his girlfriend pretend to be him on the headset.
And let me say, though the incident krekdi initially described in the second video was about a girl not wanting to admit to liking anime, my own experience is that the problem is way worse in the comic book and tabletop RPG fandoms. Of course, since anime is an incredibly varied category, the difference is mostly a case of people going, "Oh, sure, I know lots of girls that are into anime. You like yaoi and magical girls, right?" and being just as disbelieving when a girl expresses a preference for fighting-, philosophical-, or horror-based shows. As long as girls keep to their corner of anime fandom, it can be a little safer to admit to liking it. The same is true for video games, where people will assume girls to be into cute Wii games and the Sims. But dare to step into an arena where there's no preset, pre-packaged, acceptable girl niche, and good gods do the misogynists come out of the woodwork because this is THEIR TURF, YO.
The worst ones, though, are the ones who start off with, "Oh, I know some awesome girls who really are fans! It's just that most of them aren't! So you see, when I'm complaining about all those ~fake nerd girls, I'm not talking about all nerd girls, just the ones who're fake, who happen to be most of them! See, I'm not making blanket statements about girls! :D" No. Sit the fuck down. Saying you totes know ~legit nerd girls just makes you sound like those homophobic assholes who claim they of course can't be homophobic assholes because some of their best friends are gay.
I have a lot of feels about this topic, as might be pellucid at this point. A lot of strangely detailed, ranty feels. My understanding of geek culture was rose-tinted at first, when I was just discovering what it was and what it meant for my existing interests. Look, I said, here is a group of people who share detailed, off-brand interests, who are familiar with being lambasted for not conforming, who are a tight-knit community, who appreciate intellectualism! It will be awesome! Finding out that it's still a boys' club in many ways was not the best experience of my young life-certainly not the worst, but a pervasive disappointment.
Idk. Out of words, I think. It's just frustrating. I can't even get Jeremy to really appreciate why I no longer want to wear a headset when we play Halo together, or why I won't go into the local hobby store when a particular clerk is working.
krekdi. Feels. ;;