The Patriarchy Strikes Back

Mar 14, 2006 08:25

...These circumstances are leading to the emergence of a new society whose members will disproportionately be descended from parents who rejected the social tendencies that once made childlessness and small families the norm. These values include an adherence to traditional, patriarchal religion, and a strong identification with one's own folk or ( Read more... )

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Comments 11

docsrock March 14 2006, 08:51:31 UTC
Very interesting. Can you post a link or citation? (too lazy to google at the moment)

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bosstweed March 14 2006, 08:54:26 UTC
Done! Thank you for reminding me, as I meant to do it earlier.

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rimrunner March 14 2006, 08:54:59 UTC
After coming across that article in two different forums, one of them nonfluffypagans for gods' sakes, I read the article and looked at the citations.

I think it's a load of horseshit, quite frankly. He doesn't provide any citations for his statistics, the one demographic study he includes in his references studies a handful of people in seven western European and Scandinavian countries and acknowledges its own limitations (and by the way, it's a study of correlation between attitude and family structure, and we all know that correlation is not causation, right?), and pretty much all of his specific examples are ancient Greece and ancient Rome...for which, by the way, population data has to be unreliable or nonexistent ( ... )

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bosstweed March 14 2006, 13:01:29 UTC
Hmmm ( ... )

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rimrunner March 14 2006, 16:00:44 UTC
The thing is, though, I think those questions of birthrates and the effect of population on the survival of a culture are kind of foregone conclusions. Nobody's going to argue against either of those.

I noticed the great gaping hole where his discussion of immigration should've been, which perhaps affected my reception of his argument. International borders are arguably more fluid now than they've ever been, the U.S.'s plan to wall off Mexico notwithstanding. One of the few things Bush has done that I approve of is attempt to open the door to legal status for people who are already here illegally.

I think one pretty strong argument against conservatism winning out is urbanization. Now, I don't have current data on demographic trends, and I can't look them up right now because I have to go to yet another meeting (third one today!), but I keep reading stories about places like Wyoming emptying out, and people yanking roots and making for the cities. Which tend to be more liberal, politically, than rural areas, and people get exposed ( ... )

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brassratgirl March 15 2006, 13:41:39 UTC
If the current rate of Muslim immigration to Europe continues, for instance, it's going to look a damn sight different and less liberal than it does right now. So far as I've been able to get from the media, Muslim communities in Europe are largely NOT acculturating, and if their birthrate is higher than "native" Europeans, the outcome should be obvious.

Not necessarily obvious. People who immigrate tend to be looking for something new. Muslim ex-pat communities in particular tend to be more liberal than the folks at home. And while Europeans are "liberal" in the U.S. personal liberal values sense of the world, they can also be incredibly insular, racist, etc. In all parts of the world, traditionally the most conservative communities are also the most insular; cities are more liberal in part because they have a greater mix of people from all over.

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Already happened... joshuadf March 14 2006, 14:28:22 UTC
... or did you miss what's been going on in Washington, DC, the past few years?

Seriously, though, I only glanced at a few lines in the article and I'd agree that's it's built on some pretty shaky assumptions. One I didn't see mentioned is: Why would children of conservatives all be conservative? (For example, both my parents and my in-laws are significantly more conservative than most of their children on many issues.)

Also, there is a long tradition of female leadership in Christian and Jewish religious practice as well (besides the obvious Mary examples, there were female prophets such as Deborah, lay leaders like Rhoda, etc.). The exception is the priesthood which was required by law to be only male descendants of Aaron the brother of Moses. This is one reason the modern Christians that have "priests" (Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox) rather than "pastors", which are modern version of prophets, have more trouble with female leadership. ([bias]Despite St. Paul's "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, ( ... )

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Re: Already happened... rimrunner March 14 2006, 16:06:11 UTC
Why would children of conservatives all be conservative?

Exactly, and that's one of the things I was getting at when I talked about other influences. For better or for worse, for younger people (say, into one's early to mid-twenties, as far as I've observed and have read), the primary shapers of their opinions are their peers.

This is one reason the modern Christians that have "priests" (Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox) rather than "pastors", which are modern version of prophets, have more trouble with female leadership. Hey, I always wondered about that. Huh ( ... )

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Re: Already happened... joshuadf March 15 2006, 11:22:45 UTC
That reminds me of another point, I don't remember where I read this, but there's been an argument that liberality/conservatism is a function of stage in life. The Baby Boomers are currently a big proportion of our population, and an even bigger part of the voting public. Don't know if it holds up with real-world data or not, though.

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Re: Already happened... brassratgirl March 15 2006, 13:43:41 UTC
I don't know if there's been any demographic studies to that effect, but anectdotally people certainly get more conservative as they age. Since our parent's generation had considerably fewer children than their parents - ugh.

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