I am so not going to touch this one anymore than I already have, but still...

[chironcentaur]

Somebody pointing out that it seems there are two different approaches to religion in the Hellenic community (one primarily focused on culture and ethics; the other primarily on the gods themselves) should not be a signal for you to jump up on your tired old throne of infallibility soap box and start screeching, "See, I was right! We Recon are

Comments

[erl_queen]

It's amazing to me how every time Tim says something, he just proves once again how ignorant he is (willfully so, at this point) of what ancient religion was actually like. If worshipping the gods from the heart, moving as you feel They guide you, is not authentic, then I guess someone should go back in time and chastise all those ancient Greeks who did just that. Where does he think tradition came from? One person meeting Pan on the road and being told to set up a festival - a hundred years later, that festival is "tradition", but it started with one person's UPG

[newdance]

I still want proof of his proper clay vessel. All I've seen from him is abstract theory and practically nothing, well, in evidence of practise.

[erl_queen]

Oh yes, that's an issue in itself, the fact that every time anyone asks him even the simplest question about what he himself does for the gods, he evades it. But even assuming he *does* practice what he preaches, it boggles my mind that he'd think it preferable to spending one's days entirely devoted to the gods, but not being strictly Recon. I think, for people like him, it's scary to acknowledge that ALL religion is essentially created from the collective UPGs of a bunch of people early on (and if it's a living thing, it evolves and changes as more people have their own experiences).

[newdance]

Indeed.

I don't really get following "tradition" just for the sake of it. There are perfectly good reasons aside from "it's traditional" -- personally, I feel it's important to strengthen a bond between myself as a modern worshipper and the spirit of ancient worshippers. I don't really care if another person wants to do something they created wholecloth or whatever else -- that bond is for my own psyche, and if others share that feeling, then great.

And as you said, ultimately ALL practises started with some kind of UPG or UGG (Unverified Group Gnosis). Hesiod apparently believed that everything he wrong down was told to him directly by a Musa, as the most ready example -- the only real difference between what I say and what Hesiod has said is I was born in 1981.

[newdance]

Like I said, I can't knock the free advertisement. :-) Maybe now I'll get to lure unsuspecting newbies into following The False Hellenismos™!!! MAWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! IT FEELS SO GOOD!!!!!

[laria_a]

By free advertisement, do you mean this thread there? Just curious, because if so I think he's already mangled your suggested branches of HP:

'•Practitioners [of Hellenismos]: those who focus on the traditional polytheistic religion of Ancient Greece, and
•Celebrants [of the Greek Gods]: those who are ultimately irreligious (rejection or contrary to religious traditions, ethics, and lifestyle) , and primary use imagination and emotion to guide a spiritual practice.'

So 'intellectual' religious people Practitioners follow the True Religion, and 'spiritual' religious people Celebrants are irreligious. What.

[newdance]

Yeah, he still very plainly has missed the point, but at least he links to what I've actually SAID. So basically he's being far more blatant than ever before that he's simply twisting what other people have said to suit his own agenda.

[laria_a]

True. And yeah, he is. He really does know how to twist words around. Hermes just don't got shit on him. :D

[ursus_of_unrv]

"Somebody pointing out that it seems there are two different approaches to religion in the Hellenic community (one primarily focused on culture and ethics; the other primarily on the gods themselves)"

I disagree slightly, though. I think the two main approaches are the Neoplatonic and the Nonplatonic.

[chironcentaur]

And that is a huge chunk of what I mean when I say things like that. Because a lot of the people on the other side of that fence *are* NeoPlatonists. And those two world views and approaches to the divine are in no way compatible.

Perhaps we should go with your terms instead. :-)

[fallenkalina]

How did I keep forgetting to put that blog on my Google Reader? I swore it was there!

That was awesome, and I think it does give the two BROAD catagories for Modern Hellenic Religion. By no means mutually exclusive or perfect, but a good start.

[newdance]

Thanks! :-)

I was hoping others would get that out of it. It was all sparked by a convo with Gavin over AIM. Basically, the *best adjusted* people have kind of a yin-and-yang approach to either side of it; some of the best Intellectual types are also Insightful, and some of the best Spiritual types are also Grounded (for lack of better terms). It's about finding the right balance for oneself and steering clear of thinking that there's only One True Way to approach the religion.

I should probably make a follow-up post to expand on this idea.

[chironcentaur]

Probably should. :-)

[fallenkalina]

If there was a one true way for Hellenic Polytheism, I think I would cry. I'm not very good at following rules.

Also warning you -- I shared your post on Daly with a friend of mine who does a trans blog/twitter. It's getting great feedback.

[chironcentaur]

Well, of course you're the Pope. You have the awesome hat. Tim only has a tiny pointy head. :-P

ultimately what I see in the attitude you mention there is that somehow they know the minds of the arch-Hellenes better than they did.But Tim does know better! Its just like all the arguments he makes about how the Hellenic religion never allowed any icky outside elements to mix in with their perfect, frozen in time tradition, and thus the Hellenistic era is to be shunned and ignored. Because they were Doing It Wrong, don't you know? And I'm sure some of the ancient people that lived very intensely devoted religious lives, like the people devoted to nymphs that lived outside society in a cave devoted to them (as just one example off the top of my head) were Doing It Wrong too. Delusional, over come by emotion and definitely Not Hellenic

[newdance]

Curiously I seem to be one of those few stuck in the middle where I think there needs to be respect for Gods as well as respect for tradition; this gives me unpopular opinions like "just because you think Odin told you to do this to yourself or someone else doesn't mean you should" and "just because it was done in the 5th century doesn't mean it can or should be done today". So I piss both sides off.I'm right with you there. For me, it's about asking myself and the Theoi, "well, how do I *know* this is the words of a Deity and not just my own wishful thinking?" and "X is an ancient practise, how will it best serve me in 2010, if at all?" On occasion, even the Gods have told me that some idea I had was whacked and should be scrapped; more often than not, the most basic ancient ritual formats are the ones that best serve my religious practises in the here and now. It's about finding a balance between the two sides. And, at least for myself, with my severe lack of family times, it's sort of important (though still not The Most

[erl_queen]

I'm there as well. For all that Tim makes me out to be some wacky deluded mystic, I actually come from a strong Recon base. And I still recommend to newbies that they spend quite a bit of time steeping themselves in the history and tradition, while simultaneously trying to foster living devotional relationships with the gods, at which point then they may want to diverge here or there, based on their experience. But that a foundation in tradition is essential before one can start extrapolating wisely.