Mitchell vs Mormon Missionaries (take 3)
I'm currently recovering from having all of my wisdom teeth pulled out. I'm fine, but I took today off to more fully recover. And guess who stopped by? Two young female Mormon Missionaries! I should've taken a picture...
1. Background Info
1.1. First, they asked me who contacted me last. Funny story. I went to the Hill Cumorah Pageant about 2 months ago (like ya do), and a friend of mine signed me up for all the missionary crap they offer (as some kind of a sick joke).
1.2. The first group that contacted me was 2 male missionaries. A friend of mine dressed up in a skirt made of tin foil and threw pencils at us the entire time. The males did not return.
1.3. The second group that contacted me was 2 females. My "zany" friend wasn't there, so we had a more normal conversation. I specifically asked for another free book (the Doctrines and Covenants), but those females never returned either. Interesting.
1.4. The third group contacted me today (on my day off). They did not have a book for me, and did not know a thing about me--except for where I lived. How could a church be so disorganized? I don't know.
2. Have you read it?
2.1. The first thing they asked me was if I'd read the Book of Mormon. I told them, yes, I've read that, the Bible, and the Koran.
2.2. They asked me what I thought about the BOM. I told them it was probably a really good explanation at the time (for where Indians came from). [The BOM describes the life of a few settlers from Jerusalem who were guided to America with the help of a magic compass that God gave them]. The whole thing kind of looks like an excuse / explanation for why there were people living in America before Columbus. So I told them "that's probably why it was written."
3. Impossible!
3.1. They told me that was impossible because Joseph Smith was a young man when he found the Golden Plates (from which he transcribed the Book of Mormon), and therefore, it was impossible for a young man to've written such a marvelous book.
3.2. I told them, yes, that's the same thing that Muslims say about Mohammed. Muslims claim Mohammed was illiterate, and therefore it was impossible for him to've written such a marvelous book.
4. Is Mohammed a Prophet?
4.1. They asked me if I honestly thought that Mohammed was a prophet of God.
4.2. I told them Mohammed sounds exactly as credible as Joseph Smith (or any of the other "latter day" prophets). Islamic literature seems to support their claim. Lots of Muslims believe in him. And LDS literature supports their claim. Lots of Mormons believe in Joseph Smith. I asked them how the two were really any different.
5. All religions are really the same
5.1. Their answer? "All religions are really the same." They all teach the same basic truths.
5.2. I told them yes, but, not really. Mormons claim that there are lots of prophets (and that there are prophets alive today). Muslims claim that Mohammed was the Final Prophet. That's not teaching the same thing.
5.3. They didn't seem to have a counter for that one, so I continued. Most Catholics and Protestants believe in the Trinity, I said. (Mormons don't by the way). They say you need to believe in Jesus Christ (and believe in the Trinity) to go to Heaven. But the Koran specifically says if you believe in the Trinity, you go to Hell! You're literally damned if you do and damned if you don't! One of them laughed at that point.
5.4. Next, I brought up the Catholic church--which claims apostolic succession. Catholics trace the different Popes back all the way to Peter. Mormons claim there was a "break" in the apostolic succession and the church had to be Restored--and they claim the Bible predicts this!
6. Who are you?
6.1. One of them finally broke in and asked me why I knew so much about this stuff. They told me they're used to talking to people who've never read the Book of Mormon (and some people that cannot read at all)!
6.2. I told them my infatuation with religion started after my first philosophy class in college--after I learned about the 3 great proofs for the existence of God (the cosmological, ontological, and teleological arguments). Until that day, I had never even questioned the existence of God. But after studying the arguments, I found that they all sucked, so I started looking for a better argument. I never found one, so here I am.
6.3. That story seemed to scare the crap out of one of them. One girl said "well, I've never heard of those arguments before, and I haven't questioned God's existence." And then she sorta paused like she knew that she just said something dumb. The other girl chimed in with "I think I would be really scared to live in a world where there's no God... did you notice any change in your outlook when you stopped believing?"
6.4. I smiled at her warmly and said "not really." :)
7. Game Theory
7.1. Eventually they told me "look, you just have to pray and God will show himself to you."
7.2. I told them I'd done that. Shit, I even prayed with them before they left!
7.3. Then I told them my analogy about Game Theory (which is what all true believing boils down to, I think).
7.3.1. If you go to a casino and play the slot machines, and WIN right off the bat, chances are you're going to continue playing (thinking that you're going to win more). I'm pretty sure psychological studies have been done to show that this is the case. It's just how the human mind works. The more WINS you get early on, the longer you'll associate your actions with winning.
7.3.2. So I told them, theists (Christians, Mormons, whatever you call yourself) probably had a lot of God WINS when they were young. They probably had a lot of minor coincidences that led them to believe that a God exists.
7.3.3. Non-theists (Ätheists, Agnostics, etc) probably didn't have as many "random coincidences" in their lives, and learned to overlook such events (or learned to find better explanations for such events).
7.4. After that amazing speech, one of them actually said it was a miracle that they met me today (on my day off). You see, this particular pair of missionaries had never stopped by my house before. But then they stopped by -- on my day off. And what are the chances of that? They saw it as a sign from God.
7.5. I really didn't have a counter for that. I mean I just explained the whole "Game Theory" thing to them. What else could I have said?
8. Outro
8.1. Anyway, they're coming back on Sunday. If anyone can give me a better counter to their micro-miracles, please share!
8.2. And if you have questions you'd like answered by a Mormon Missionary, let me know, I'll ask anything. :)
cheers,
MITCHELL
1. Background Info
1.1. First, they asked me who contacted me last. Funny story. I went to the Hill Cumorah Pageant about 2 months ago (like ya do), and a friend of mine signed me up for all the missionary crap they offer (as some kind of a sick joke).
1.2. The first group that contacted me was 2 male missionaries. A friend of mine dressed up in a skirt made of tin foil and threw pencils at us the entire time. The males did not return.
1.3. The second group that contacted me was 2 females. My "zany" friend wasn't there, so we had a more normal conversation. I specifically asked for another free book (the Doctrines and Covenants), but those females never returned either. Interesting.
1.4. The third group contacted me today (on my day off). They did not have a book for me, and did not know a thing about me--except for where I lived. How could a church be so disorganized? I don't know.
2. Have you read it?
2.1. The first thing they asked me was if I'd read the Book of Mormon. I told them, yes, I've read that, the Bible, and the Koran.
2.2. They asked me what I thought about the BOM. I told them it was probably a really good explanation at the time (for where Indians came from). [The BOM describes the life of a few settlers from Jerusalem who were guided to America with the help of a magic compass that God gave them]. The whole thing kind of looks like an excuse / explanation for why there were people living in America before Columbus. So I told them "that's probably why it was written."
3. Impossible!
3.1. They told me that was impossible because Joseph Smith was a young man when he found the Golden Plates (from which he transcribed the Book of Mormon), and therefore, it was impossible for a young man to've written such a marvelous book.
3.2. I told them, yes, that's the same thing that Muslims say about Mohammed. Muslims claim Mohammed was illiterate, and therefore it was impossible for him to've written such a marvelous book.
4. Is Mohammed a Prophet?
4.1. They asked me if I honestly thought that Mohammed was a prophet of God.
4.2. I told them Mohammed sounds exactly as credible as Joseph Smith (or any of the other "latter day" prophets). Islamic literature seems to support their claim. Lots of Muslims believe in him. And LDS literature supports their claim. Lots of Mormons believe in Joseph Smith. I asked them how the two were really any different.
5. All religions are really the same
5.1. Their answer? "All religions are really the same." They all teach the same basic truths.
5.2. I told them yes, but, not really. Mormons claim that there are lots of prophets (and that there are prophets alive today). Muslims claim that Mohammed was the Final Prophet. That's not teaching the same thing.
5.3. They didn't seem to have a counter for that one, so I continued. Most Catholics and Protestants believe in the Trinity, I said. (Mormons don't by the way). They say you need to believe in Jesus Christ (and believe in the Trinity) to go to Heaven. But the Koran specifically says if you believe in the Trinity, you go to Hell! You're literally damned if you do and damned if you don't! One of them laughed at that point.
5.4. Next, I brought up the Catholic church--which claims apostolic succession. Catholics trace the different Popes back all the way to Peter. Mormons claim there was a "break" in the apostolic succession and the church had to be Restored--and they claim the Bible predicts this!
6. Who are you?
6.1. One of them finally broke in and asked me why I knew so much about this stuff. They told me they're used to talking to people who've never read the Book of Mormon (and some people that cannot read at all)!
6.2. I told them my infatuation with religion started after my first philosophy class in college--after I learned about the 3 great proofs for the existence of God (the cosmological, ontological, and teleological arguments). Until that day, I had never even questioned the existence of God. But after studying the arguments, I found that they all sucked, so I started looking for a better argument. I never found one, so here I am.
6.3. That story seemed to scare the crap out of one of them. One girl said "well, I've never heard of those arguments before, and I haven't questioned God's existence." And then she sorta paused like she knew that she just said something dumb. The other girl chimed in with "I think I would be really scared to live in a world where there's no God... did you notice any change in your outlook when you stopped believing?"
6.4. I smiled at her warmly and said "not really." :)
7. Game Theory
7.1. Eventually they told me "look, you just have to pray and God will show himself to you."
7.2. I told them I'd done that. Shit, I even prayed with them before they left!
7.3. Then I told them my analogy about Game Theory (which is what all true believing boils down to, I think).
7.3.1. If you go to a casino and play the slot machines, and WIN right off the bat, chances are you're going to continue playing (thinking that you're going to win more). I'm pretty sure psychological studies have been done to show that this is the case. It's just how the human mind works. The more WINS you get early on, the longer you'll associate your actions with winning.
7.3.2. So I told them, theists (Christians, Mormons, whatever you call yourself) probably had a lot of God WINS when they were young. They probably had a lot of minor coincidences that led them to believe that a God exists.
7.3.3. Non-theists (Ätheists, Agnostics, etc) probably didn't have as many "random coincidences" in their lives, and learned to overlook such events (or learned to find better explanations for such events).
7.4. After that amazing speech, one of them actually said it was a miracle that they met me today (on my day off). You see, this particular pair of missionaries had never stopped by my house before. But then they stopped by -- on my day off. And what are the chances of that? They saw it as a sign from God.
7.5. I really didn't have a counter for that. I mean I just explained the whole "Game Theory" thing to them. What else could I have said?
8. Outro
8.1. Anyway, they're coming back on Sunday. If anyone can give me a better counter to their micro-miracles, please share!
8.2. And if you have questions you'd like answered by a Mormon Missionary, let me know, I'll ask anything. :)
cheers,
MITCHELL