Irish-Celtic Theogony

[mattyg7]

I've decided that I'd like to dedicate some time to writing my own version of a Irish pagan-inspired theogony. I plan on dedicating some time to researching some Hellenic and Indian theogonies in order to gain a broader understanding of Indo-European beliefs, as well as more thoroughly engaging with the Book of Invasions in order to determine which

Comments

[wire_mother]

There's a lot in the Lebor Gabala that would be of interest to such a project. Or, at least, there has been a lot there that I've found useful in my own ongoing Irish Gaelic polytheist theogony. One impression that I've gotten is that the first (Cessair) and second (Partholon) invasions are perhaps different, possibly local, versions of an original primordial "invasion" story.

[wire_mother]

You're also going to want to look at Death, War, and Sacrifice by Bruce Lincoln. Celtic Heritage by Alwyn and Brinley Rees should be extremely helpful. It's a little embellished, but Michael Dames's Mythic Ireland should also be of interest. You're almost certainly going to want to compare material in the History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmouth (and possibly Nennius's Historia Brittonum).

[mattyg7]

Thanks! I have Celtic Heritage, but I'll have to check out the others. I think that Cessair probably does have some aspects that should be enlightening. In your opinion, do you think that Cessair might be a model of an original Mother goddess, or would you take the theogony back further? It's hard to tell where to stop, since it probably doesn't make sense to go all the way back to Noah.

[finnchuill]

Jaan Puhvel's Comparative Mythology will give you a good Indo-European comparative study with which to work.

[mattyg7]

Thanks!

[mattyg7]

Has anyone read this attempt at a reconstructed Irish creation myth (http://www.irishtribes.com/articles/2012-11-lost-celtic-creation-myth-in-english.html)? If so, what do you think? I have some opinions on it, but they're probably more of my personal opinions rather than a critique on it as a piece of reconstructionism.

[gilla1982]

Sounds like an interesting project, I suppose it depends on how realistic you want your (re)construction to be. Presumably a good starting point for any theogony is knowing exactly what is meant by god or gods, what their powers are, and the basis of their relationship to mankind. Fortunately, early Irish sources are pretty coherent and consistent on all these points. Maybe worth starting by setting out exactly what you are looking for in a theogony and thinking about what the early Irish were looking for as well. Mary Helms doesnt really touch on the Irish but her books 'The Kingly Ideal: Art, Trade, and Power' and 'Access to Origins: Affines, Ancestors, and Aristocrats' are extremely interesting when read against early Irish material. The below papers specifically address some of the Irish origin stories themselves and Carey also has some interesting things to say about some of the Welsh material

[mattyg7]

Wow! That's great. Thanks a lot

[gilla1982]

Is it still common to find Danu and Bile posited as the first gods?

I don't know whether or not it is still common but this would go back to what I said about how realistic you want your (re)construction to be I think this was a rather fanciful product of 20th century imaginations

What is the relationship between people and the gods? As I understand it, the nature of the spirits seems pretty similar to what Shinto teaches about the spirits: that is that humans are related to the gods and are essentially of the same kind.

I'd have said they seem to be like Us but not Us but they're definitely written about in terms of being relatable to medieval tuatha. That's quite important they're different in some very fundamental ways and Jean Pierre Vernant has some helpful insights on this in his collection of essays 'Mortals and Immortals'. That distance is important because its from within that that some of their authority is drawn especially in their dabblings in human affairs.

I'm really finding myself drawn to the Dagda as a first god,

[mael_brigde]

Very interesting project, and the piece you linked us to is delightful.

I can tell you a most recent form of Fionntain, though. He died recently in the form of my white, red-eared cat, having kept that shape for seventeen years. (Though admittedly, as he aged the red spread from his ears to his back.)

I would be interested in seeing what you come up with.