Mafia stuff...
Saving in here cause I don't have time to finish...
[QUOTE=15]Ah, so we've started already.
I like Az' idea that the non-posting idea may have been used on chambers to give a mafia a reason to lurk. But since we can't get any information from chambers today, that doesn't really help us... yet. I hope the mod plans to send him a prodding PM at the end of this day, though. That sort of role is a great way to make someone forget they're in the game
Certainly be interesting to hear from Puzzle.
My suspicion re: the jaws of life is that it's a role (roleblocker ability, maybe? Who knows in this game) that went for someone who was being protected by multiple people.
Oh, one last thing- if you play Mafia on News under a different name to here, could you let me know?[/QUOTE]Day 1 specultion. Thrilling.
[QUOTE=60]
Hmm. On the one hand, an ability preventing someone from posting WOULD seem like a mafia ability (lowering communication). Preventing a townie from voting is VERY strong late in the game, however. I've only seen that sort of ability once, and it was on a townie (Pibbly in Dunwich mafia, although it was publically announced that the ability was his). He used it only once that game, late in the game to shut Dusk the hell up on the day Dusk was going to be lynched anyway.
What's keeping me feeling this might be a mafia job anyway is I don't see why a townie would randomly shut someone up night 1. I don't agree with night 1 viggings but I see why some people do them anyway (bloodthirsty glory-hound gambling sods). I don't see why any townie would do a night 1 silencing.
Fact is, we're not going to lynch chamber. He can't respond, and there's no particular reason to believe he's mafia other than speculation that not being able to talk is a great excuse for a mafia to lurk day 1 and not give anything away.
I am concerned about the soul-loss thing. If not for this being so random, I'd simply say it can't be good so let's lynch Puzzle and see what we learn. But between randomness and the fact it was publically announced, there's no guarantee that anything's wrong with Puzzle.
Not really picking up much of anything to base a suspicion off otherwise. Kenji's vote for a player who can't speak (more silly than scummy, I think), both Zoob and jcsuperstar apparently trying to establish that the post-blocker will be seen as mafia if they come out (an understandable opinion), Stevie encouraging the post-blocker to come out because it's not a power role although that will narrow down the list of people are could be (but not by much, and we might get a better idea of how the game works so we can catch up with the mafia who presumably have access to several role PMs).
If there's anyone who hasn't posted, or who only posted to check in, I suggest they weigh in with an opinion sooner rather than later.[/QUOTE]More speculation on Fayul's ability, and a call for lurkers to come out. I really don't disagree with anything here.
[QUOTE=70]
Fayul:
-is Chamber one of those people you had to find, or are you still 3 away?
-must you find them by using your ability? Or is it just if you all find out each other's name?
-do you get told the people's name/ability, or do you have to rely on them to tell you (in which case they may be lying)?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Bill Gates?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Scrooge McDuck?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to The Human Torch?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Mick Jagger?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Jared, the Subway guy?
(that last lot is deliberately cryptic. Only one of them, as far as I know, has to do with anything. Bear with me.)[/QUOTE] The first three questions are perfectly logical at this point. The "deliberately cryptic" ones on the other hand make me wonder.
[QUOTE=82]
My suspicion is that the other people involved know nothing of Fayul's (and now Kenji's) alternate win condition and don't gain anything by helping them out. However, don't make it obvious that you're not one of their people either, since that narrows down their choices.
I echo that people should not volunteer information to Fayul and Kenji until we work out what the heck is going on here. Try to fish without giving away your role name to them.
I read Dollar mafia here recently, so I'm certainly aware of games in which townies can have additional win conditions. Attempts to pursue a win instead of all-mafia-dead, a win that the rest of the town won't share, are NOT additional. They are a threat to the town, just like an SK.
That neither of them was under pressure to make the claim was interesting. It suggests that both believe they have nothing to hide and really are helpful townies (that, or that this is the best way for them personally to win the game). Not that it's unheard of for scum to make brazen day 1 claims and be believed because after all, why would a scum claim something scummy-sounding on day 1 without any pressure?
Round in circles we go. Once our two extra-win-condition people read their PMs again and answer everyone's questions, we'll see where we go from there.[/QUOTE] I'm assuming this means that the cryptic questions before have something to do with his role, and he was trying to se if he was one of the ones Fayul was looking for without giving away his role name. If this isn't the case, I have no idea what he was getting at. If that was what he was doing, then his statement that we shouldn't offer information to Fayul and Kenji is a contridiction.
Other then that, he points out that the alternate win condition is anti-town, which is true. Not much else to make of that...
[QUOTE=89]I'm puzzled as to why Puzzle is up in arms about who the doc protects. I don't see why the mafia would nightkill either of Fayul or Kenji and I don't see why we want a doc to protect either of them. Arguably the doc should protect Turbo (if he doesn't spill the beans) or just go out among everyone else and hope to protect the person the mafia is trying to kill. The worst thing about all these revelations is it's helping the mafia narrow down who the actually dangerous people might be. Why would they kill fayul or kenji or even turbo when they know that none of these people are a cop or a doc?
Turbo suddenly speaking up, I don't know whether that's unfortunate or not. In case of death or silencing happening, you might want to give us that information before the opportunity is lost. I don't really see much use in keeping it back now that the mafia know someone has that data, and so can't be taken by surprise. At the least, the numbers you believe to be the number of townies/mafia should be given- alternate win conditions are the only stuff we can ambush with, so they're the only stuff worth holding back (although if you die without spilling those, we lose the ability to try and break things with a mass claim later). HOWEVER- as Puzzle says, whatever you end up doing don't spill anything until after Fayul has talked a bit more. And don't give away your role name.[/QUOTE] Wonders about Puzzles weirdness and seems to advocate Turbo revealing his info. Nothing scummy here...
[QUOTE=128]Hmph. Fayul, I don't know why you lied first up. Your original claim was much more threatening. Now, as Puzzle says, you're an asset to the town (if telling the truth). I certainly don't blame chambers for being unwilling to tell you his role name, though.
One thing's for sure- that win condition makes no sense if all of the Cowell group are townie. Frankly, I now want to know who the other two are. Not what their special abilities are, just who the two other fans of Cowell are.
Re: Kenji
-Lack of vote apparently confirmed. This is a powerful drawback, especially late game, but for both a townie and a mafia so it doesn't prove anything. If the mafia win condition is the usual "equal the town in number" thing, it's less of a drawback for the mafia than might be expected since they can win even if they don't technically have 50% of the votes, whereas it's a VERY big drawback for the town since if Kenji is one of the last townies the mafia can force a win when they still have less than 50% of the people.
-If we believe Kenji is a townie and never try to lynch him, he is strictly worse than a vanilla townie. He has no abilities to interfere with the mafia, and he's deadweight in the endgame. The mafia will never kill him either, since he's 100% no threat to them.
-If Kenji is mafia/SK AND telling the truth about his ability to move lynches, then he's got a bit of a drawback but has the ability to ensure he takes one townie with him which is a very strong balance (especially for an SK, since in the pinch it takes two days to kill him if there's no vig left, and on the first day he effectively gets an extra kill).
-If Kenji is mafia/SK, though, he's quite possibly lying about the second part of his ability to try and discourage a lynch, and in fact has some other strong ability (like serial-killing?).
Frankly, my BS detector is going off here. If Kenji is town, he's not very useful at all since he has no vote so there's minimal downside (plus we'll at least have narrowed down who out of the Cowell group is scum/SK). If he's SK or mafia, he's incredibly dangerous. And either way, getting Kenji apparently removes an alternate win condition from the game. The risk/reward is incredibly good for us given that it's a day 1 lynch and those usually royally suck. My only concern is he might be telling the truth on the lynch ability and so we should hope we have a vig and appeal for a nightkill.[/QUOTE]Here he starts his attack on Kenji. It's obvious that he can't be mafia, but at this point it was entirely possible for him to be a SK.
[QUOTE=142]Kenji, if you're a townie, that's the last thing you should be doing. Heck, mafia is a team game unless you're an SK. Individual townies don't need to be alive for the town to win. And because you have no vote, even if you're a townie, losing you doesn't actually hurt the town. But it will help us narrow down who in your Cowell group is a scum/SK, and it will let the town move on instead of fixating on what you are. If you could help the town, that'd be one thing, but since the town doesn't lose a single vote or anti-mafia ability killing you, well... that's way better than most 1st day lynches for the town, even if you are a townie.
I don't believe we can trust you with any plan, whether to deflect the lynch to someone else of our choosing or to refuse to deflect the lynch at all and take it for the good of the town. I don't believe you're a townie either, why would you talk about randomly getting someone lynched? How does that help anyone? You have no vote, which fits well with winning by an alternate means, but not with helping the town win. You suggest randomly using your ability to get someone else "randomly" killed.
Gut feeling says you're a SK/cult leader, and that we should have you vigged tonight. You got overexcited when you realised that one of your targets (for recruitment or death, I don't know) announced themselves to you and gave away too much. It happens.
FOS-with-a-recommendation-to-have-nightkilled: Kenji
If we just go ahead and leave Kenji to the mercy of night abilities, I can wait for the Cowell group I think. If he's scum of some sort, then there's no reason for the Cowellites to pop up. If he IS a voteless townie, then we can ask again politely, and anyone who doesn't pop up immediately but whom is subsequently identified as a Cowell fan will have lots of explaining to do.
However, if we do leave Kenji for the night, what do we do today?[/QUOTE]
This is in response to Kenji threatening to fire randomly. I can agree with most of this until he gets to the part about Kenji getting over excited. I think that's a pretty bad way to explain Kenji's claim. Either a mafia twisting evidence, or a townie in need of a :chillpill:
[QUOTE=153]I don't even pretend to understand Puzzle (although I am starting to wonder if he's a Cowell fan trying to preserve his idol). At any rate, I'll go with him this far-it's not a good idea to lynch Kenji today. I disagree with having him fire his ability to check his claim, though, and I imagine he'll object to that too (whether because he's lying or he doesn't want to lose his ability to spite us if we try to lynch him).
So, Kenji, can we have an agreement that you won't decide today's lynch if we don't try to lynch you today?
If we find a Cowell fan who hasn't come out, that's going to look reaaaaally bad (cunning plans are no excuse). I can't see any downside to the town to have everyone know who the Cowell fans are. It doesn't expose their abilities to the mafia. If someone can find a downside, then explain it fairly soon. Please, if you're a townie and you're a Cowell fan, stand up and help us out here.
Puzzle- I'm sorry, why should we be getting "back" to the Verbal lynch? I wasn't aware that most of us had even given the time of day to a bandwagon on Verbal.
So...
Verbal wagon, two votes. Puzzle- voted Verbal in response to
[QUOTE=Verbal]Oh, really?
I suggest that having 8 players with these mason-esque alternate win conditions is highly unlikely. I suggest that fayul or kenji or both are mafia or serial killers.
I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight (if fayul's the accurate pm reader).[/QUOTE]
It seems a fairly reasonable assertion to a lot of players that one of the Cowell group is likely to be anti-town, and Fayul DID initially claim an awfully quick winning method. Yet Puzzle puts a vote in the very next post, stating:
[quote=Puzzle]Puzzle
The most scummy thing I've seen so far is your will to lynch one of them without actually knowing what's going on.[/quote]
And given that Verbal's previous post hadn't even contained a vote, that's quite a stretch. I don't think Verbal ever said he didn't want to know what was going on.
Of course, even dodgier was Stevie's immediate addition to the wagon:
[quote=StevieT92]Unvote, Vote Verbal
Finally, something concrete to go on. I like this bandwagon, as I tend to think Verbal and Kenji are cleared. (Again the only way they could be scum is with someone who can come up with great plans for the mafia) Also, I'm leaving today[/quote]
I assume he meant Fayul and Kenji. Still total BS. There's no reason why they couldn't be telling the truth about having a an alternate win-condition group and still be on opposite sides. Heck, IIRC Stevie was a mafia who was masons with a townie during Dollar mafia, and they had connected (though opposing) win conditions. I don't see why he'd assume any weird group scenario couldn't happen.
Stevie's speed to jump onto someone else's bandwagon for BS reasons is dead scummy to me. Puzzle is behaving strangely and is now eager to return to a nowhere bandwagon inhabited only by himself and Stevie. I don't know who to choose. I was initially going to say Stevie, but I'm going to be arrogant and just assume for now that Stevie's vote was being silly while in a rush to say something before going on vacation. Puzzle's dodginess has come out in more than one post. Vote Puzzle[/QUOTE]Wrong choice, buddy. Regardless, I think this is a pretty fair analysis of the situation at hand.
[QUOTE=175][qoute=Puzzle]
What would my interest be in preserving my idol ? Everyone can now easily prevent the group of four from winning.[/quote]
What is this wine I see in front of me? Just because we CAN stop the 4 doesn't mean you can't try to talk us into plans that involve killing none of the 4. This statement of yours is really disingenuous at best.
[Quote=Puzzle]
I'll also repeat that there is no need for Kenji to fire today. As we are not in a lynch-or-lose situation, his ability is not an immediate danger, so it doesn't hurt. We can always make him spit it out later, as long as we are far enough from the danger zone. It wouldn't be the end of the world to have him fire today but there is no rush for that, imo.[/quote]
Not the end of the world, maybe, but what benefit is there for the town in having Kenji determine the lynch at all? Ever? The best case scenario would be Kenji volunteering to auto-lynch the person the town was going to lynch anyway and thus disarming himself. Which I sincerely doubt will ever happen.
[Quote=Puzzle]
Seconded, with an opening to having him lynch the person of the town's choice at the very end of the day, although I'd rather avoid that right now (see above). Oh, and I repeat my strong opposition to his vigging.[/quote]
Good for you. I'm almost starting to come back from voting for you, just because I am becoming so convinced that you benefit from keeping him alive and are a Cowell fan, but then you could easily be the mafia Cowell fan.
[Quote=Puzzle]
I guess Axelrod's post makes sense about exposing the 2 other fans. Maybe this can wait a bit.[/quote]
Or maybe it's just nicely convenient for you to have someone else's argument to latch on to. I don't agree with Axelrod's argument. I know my role has 100% no connection to American Idol. We also know there's this soul-removal role and this Jaws of Life thing are around. This is random mafia, not AI mafia. I was amazed enough that there's apparently 3 roles which are all Cowell fans.
Remember, it makes literally no sense if the Cowell group are all town. Them being the sole survivors would just be a case of a town win (4 townies alive, no mafia or SK). And if the group already contains a scum, I don't buy that there's a 5th person outside the group also with a win condition based around eliminating them. How many scum do we need to be centered around this one group? That would seriously warp the entire game to be all about them (since you'd have one scum trying to kill everyone but those people, and one trying to kill them all including outing the scum in the group).
[Quote=Puzzle]
The problem is that at this point Verbal jumped to the conclusion that either or both were scum although he admittedly didn't know if they had the same win condition or not and ignoring that Fayul's abilities is very unlikely a scum's. And the scum could very well be one of the other fans.[/quote]
Who knows what ability is likely to be what's in this game? I see what you're saying about jumping to the concluson though. There's no reason to be suspicious of Fayul and Kenji only but not also of the others who haven't come out yet. Indeed, it makes Fayul and Kenji look a bit better that they've been willing to be forward while others in their group... not so much.
[Quote=Puzzle]
That's sort of how he won Dollar for the Mafia.[/quote]
As I read it, Dollar was won by the mafia because the town did a really, really stupid double lynch. Interestingly, they had two mason pairs which were each likely to contain a mafia (and which both DID contain a mafia), and they were on the edge of realising that in both cases. Some people did realise that. And yet, if they had to make a double lynch, they didn't make it of either of those pairs. Let's not make the same mistake here, hmm?
[Quote=Puzzle]
Can we please agree not to use the vig on Kenji before night 4, after day 3 (we began at night) ?[/quote]
I think you can see why I'm increadingly sure you're one of the Cowell fans. Hey, Fayul and Kenji, I figure that at least SOMEONE in this drama is town so I might get a straight answer: is your goal to survive past a certain day together, not to survive to the end of the game? Of course, it's possible that Puzzle alone gains something from this. Hey, perhaps it's because he's the scum of the group!
[Quote=Puzzle]
Well, now my point is out. Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.[/quote]
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.
[Quote=Puzzle]
Second misinterpretation.
I was trying at the same time :
- not to confirm Kenji officially too early, as this spreads the doc even more.
- to prevent his vig kill, which has been advocated by several and I admit crossed my mind before I thought of his chances of being scum.
I intended to confirm that Kenji is unlikely to be scum by day 3.[/quote]
-Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny. Even if he blasts someone with the auto-lynch today, he's far from confirmed. And even if he was confirmed, a townie without a vote is USELESS to the town (one of the reasons that makes me so suspicious of Kenji still) and is not requiring of doc protection. The way you keep waving doc protection like a banner is kind of scummy.
-And if you're so concerned about spreading doc protection, why say that YOU intend to confirm Kenji by day 3? If you actually are town, isn't that an open invitation for the mafia to knock you off if you're capable of confirming people? It's very nice for you, though, the way it would take a couple of days to do it and thus keep the town away from you for at least a couple of days while you try to arrange for something else to occupy our arguments. And then you get up and say "Kenji's a confirmed town! Yay!".
I don't believe you'd be trying to pull this stuff if you were town. It's not helpful.
Oh, and Fayul: is your role-name just "Cowell fan", or is it something else and the Cowell fan bit is just part of the description?[/QUOTE]
A few points on this one...
-His use of WIFOM seems out of place here. The Cowell group is also anti-mafia, so they wouldn't let them all live, so it really would be pointless for puzzle to preserve his "idol."
-He says he considered coming back from voting Puzzle because he suspected him of being a Cowell fan. But if Puzzle were a Cowell fan, he'd most likely be scum. Bad logic.
-I agree that Axelrod's reluctance to have the other 2 fans come out was also bad logic.
-He states that Kenji and Fayul look better since the other fans haven't come out, yet does not retract his statement that Kenji should be vigged.
-"Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny." was just wrong. The other fans staying hidden made him partially confirmed.
[QUOTE=181]To silicon- not missing that at all. Just because he's calling for Cowell fans to come out doesn't mean that he's now one himself, just as someone saying they want to find the mafia doesn't mean they're not mafia. If he's a Cowell fan, now that we already know about the group anyway I'd expect him to want to know who the last person is.[/QUOTE]Nothing to see here.
[QUOTE=186]I don't want to get bogged down on whether Puzzle is a Cowell fan or not. It has implications, of course- maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's scum, or maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's town and doesn't want to add himself to the chopping block order, and maybe he doesn't admit it because he's not actually a Cowell fan.
My position for now is that Puzzle is scummy- hence my vote. If he turns out to be a Cowell fan it might make me reconsider, since it would explain his adamance that Kenji is not scum and should not be killed or lynched, and that Kenji is somehow worthy of doc protection even though his stated abilities don't benefit the town at all.
Puzzle is acting as if he has inside information. We KNOW that there was no inspections night 1, or I would have long ago assumed he was hinting at cop and backed off a little. There's generally three ways to have inside information without inspection. Have the info in your role, be a mason, be a mafia. Mason appears to be out in this case, so he either has reason in his role to be so adamant about Kenji (Cowell fan, most likely) or he's a mafia and knows that Kenji's not one of his.
Re: CropCircles: IF he's a Cowell fan and not just a scum, then he'd like an excuse as to why he didn't come out. If he's found out it's one thing if he can say "I wanted to come out but the town was against it", but very different if it was him arguing to not come out. That's all reliant on him being one of the Cowell group, though. Otherwise, he's just being plain confusing, first backing one argument and then another.[/QUOTE]
Actually, there is another way to know if someone is town or not: logic. Whether Puzzle's logic was good or bad, that's another arguement. Either way, I wouldn't say this post is scummy. Puzzle was acting weird.
[QUOTE=192]
[Quote=Puzzle]
Ever considered :
1. that I may not be a Cowell fan ?[/quote]
Yup. I said that, in fact. My last post was kind of aimed at pointing out that you being a Cowell fan should not be taken as a given and noting how scummy you were being. I currently rank the chance of you being scum of some descritpion as greater than the chance of you being a townie Cowell fan. You just don't seem to have had the town's interests in mind with some of the stuff you've tried to pull.
[Quote=Puzzle]
2. reading my #164, first part as to why I think Kenji is very likely town ?[/quote]
I did answer that. Please don't do this "he's not paying attention to my answers" thing, it's annoying. I answered that directly in post 175. I even quoted that post of yours when I did it.
To save time for all concerned, I'll quote your first part of 164 here followed by the part of my post 175 which responded to that.
[Quote=Puzzle's post #164]
Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.[/quote]
[Quote=Raf's post #175]
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.[/quote]
Vote stands on Puzzle. His replies are just delaying tactics, not actually raising anything but attempting to put people off by referring to past posts and claiming people aren't responding and making contradictory claims to get people to run in circles. I fully expect you to say "I didn't see that you'd responded to that", but given that you quoted my post I expect you to have read it enough to know that I have most certainly considered that you're not a Cowell fan and that I've responded to your argument already.[/QUOTE]Continues the heated debate with Puzzle...
[QUOTE=203]
[Quote=StevieT92]
Yes, I agree with Axelrod, and I would vote puzzle if I wasn't already voting him.[/quote]
Actually, you're voting for Verbal in this thread.[/QUOTE]
An obvious scum tell. :rolleyes2:
[QUOTE=225]He's telling the truth so far as I did use an ability last night which targeted Axelrod. I sincerely doubt the mafia have a watcher, so I reckon that clears him of being mafia unvote Puzzle.
Verbal- pushing him for more info without waiting to see if I could confirm him? Painting him as suspicious because his role is bizarre (this is random mafia! of course it's bizarre!)? WE HAVE A WINNER! vote Verbal[/QUOTE]Quick to change targets, are we? This was the start up of the wagon that would be Verbal's demise.
[QUOTE=231]Verbal:
- I assumed you had already voted for Puzzle earlier. That you were egging it on WITHOUT having your vote recorded on the bandwagon doesn't make me less suspicious.
- Regarding consistency of roles... well, maybe. I can believe Arthur Dent would have abilities based on stuff he has rather than any inherent power. Yeah, Babel Fish to help him spy on people's movements is weird. What of it? He can't possibly have made that stuff up, so he does have the ability and if he has the ability and he feels the need to false-claim name he could have come up with any amount of false claims that'd be more "consistent" with a watcher ability.
-Now, posting to say it sounded like a weird role for Dent to have, that's one thing. Not voting for him because you're waiting for me to come along and confirm (or not confirm) Puzzle's claim, that's one thing. If that's all you did, it would make sense.
What I'm having trouble with is:
[Quote=Verbal]
exposing your other ability won't hurt the town, because we're about to lynch you.[/quote]
Why the heck would the town lynch him at that point? Let's put it another way. I have now come along and confirmed he knows what he's talking about. That's almost certainly not a mafia ability because it would make it too easy for them to narrow down the power roles (not every targeted role is a power role, of course, but all the usual power roles target people). Do you still think he should claim the other half of his role, and if so- why?
This just smells of an attempt to get more information while the pressure was still there. Your post wasn't just a waiting post, or just expressing doubts over the name. There was more to it.[/QUOTE]A good explanation, though he was still rather quick to vote.
[QUOTE=252]I think the general confusion is down to the way that we have at least a couple of townies who've either lied or are staying quiet on info the town would like to know.
My personal list of suspects is pretty long for just day 1. In no particular order:
Fayul (lied, and now continues to insist that Puzzle looks extremely mafia without actually explaining why)
Axelrod (late to come forward, created false choice in that Puzzle is not inherently more suspicious because a 4th fan doesn't come forward)
Kenji (does not have a vote or a pro-town ability, suspected of being scum by other Cowell fans, suddenly offering to make useless "noble sacrifice")
Verbal (overextending against Puzzle after Puzzle claimed)
silicon (repeatedly seemed way too sure of Puzzle's innocence before the claim but without really raising much in support, always a fun way to claim the high ground after the town lynches a townie without actually persuading them not to do it . Post 172 bothers me too. Perhaps it's the length without substance, culminating in two FOS without argument).
anyone who's hardly spoken (there's been enough going on that there's really no excuse to not have an opinion).
I clear Puzzle based on a verified ability that the mafia never have as far as I know, since knowing who's got the targeted abilities is way too good for the mafia.[/QUOTE]He's right in clearing Puzzle, but then he casts suspicion on all three Cowellites, despite the fact that the last fan was most likely to be scum. Not to mention that of the 5 he suspects, 4 are now confirmed, and silicon unknown.
[QUOTE=263]
Sorry to hear about that Axelrod (and silicon too). Best of luck to you and your families.
YANP: short form of the game's events
1. Night 1 was no kills, no inspections. Something happened involving The Jaws of Life and Puzzles soul was stolen. No idea what either of these meant.
2. Fayul came forward as a fan of someone, claiming a group of 4 that had to find each other to win.
3. Kenji came forward as the leader of the fan group, Simon Cowell, stating that the win condition for them to be the last 4 standing. Also says he has no vote (confirmed) and that he has the one-shot ability to change the day's lynch target (unconfirmed). Suspicions ensue.
4. Fayul says that Kenji got the win condition right. At some point later says her role-name is Britney Spears.
5. Puzzle's weird actions, especially in the manner of defending Kenji and apparently enouraging Kenji to randomly lynch someone, attract attention and a bandwagon spearheaded by me (though not just me, in all fairness, I will acknowledge being the loudest).
6. Puzzle claims Arthur Dent with a "watcher" ability and another ability he doesn't want to give away. The results of his watcher ability from night 1 were confirmed as true by me.
7. You can read the few pages for yourself. My personal view of it includes suspicion of Verbal and renewed weird actions by Kenji, but obviously YMMV.[/QUOTE]To be honest, I have no idea what YMMV stands for.
[QUOTE=268]Are they both the same player or something? Guys, no stupid arguments that spam up the thread, k?
Oh, and for future reference some details I missed from that first list due to my hurry:
1. Turbo claims to know how many win conditions there are in this game and how many people have each.
2. Axelrod claims to be the third of the Cowell group, but with a non-music-industry role name.
I'd totally forgotten Turbo's info, so let's get back to that for a second. Turbo- at the very least, could you tell us how many people are just straight pro-town (I'd assume it's the biggest number), and how many mafia you think there are? And is there indeed a win condition that 4 people have?[/QUOTE]In response to MoT's and YANP's little "debate."
[QUOTE=296]OK, analysis of the 13/5/4/1/1:
13 town
5 mafia
1 cult leader/SK1 neutral/SK
with 4 of the above being the Cowell fans in addition to whatever else they are. There's a couple of other possibilities if one of the Cowell fans has no other win conditions, since that would free up one of the "1"s to be an alternate win condition for a townie or mafia.
With 5 mafia and only 13 townies (and a couple of them compromised by the Cowell thing at that) AND the likelihood of a cult leader, I would find it staggering if there was also an SK because seriously, come ON, even with crossfire possibilities. This also to me reduces the odds of a mafia watcher who can not only see if someone was out at night but who can also see who they targeted. The mafia have a good numerical strength here. It's hard to believe they need strong abilities too.
If not for Turbo's other comments I wouldn't believe there'd be a cult given 13 townies vs 7 non-townies, and that it'd be 5 mafia and 2 individual SKs so that the town could get assistance from crossfire.
Oh, and 13 townies out of 20 players reinforces for me that it's really unlikely there's a townie without a vote which makes Kenji look even worse.
Re: Puzzle and soul-stealing....
With a cult looking really likely a distinct possibility that the soul-stealing represents either an immediate or delayed cult recruitment. Giving away the target isn't actually a big problem, because if we just keep lynching the recruited person we will LOSE. We have to find and destroy the cult leader first, although it would be handy if they hit mafia a couple of times (recruitment usually fails on mafia, since mafia changing teams always messes up games) and then find a way to give away that mafia to us. Cult leader deaths often have an effect on the rest of their cult... sometimes, all die together, sometimes the cultists get un-culted when the leader dies. If we have a cult, I'd be hoping for the latter.
The above is a roundabout way of saying I think the chance is increased that Puzzle is not clean, but that he's still a poor lynch target.
I also reiterate to have Kenji vigged. I think there's very good odds he's one of our "1"s as well as being Cowell. Kenji as cult leader and Puzzle as first cult recruit makes a lot of sense.
In the meantime, who's mafia? I still like Verbal, but I'm having to fight off an urge to vote for YANP for annoying me and acting like a n00b mafia who's doing stuff for the sake of appearing to do stuff.[/QUOTE]He continue's his "vig kenji" arguement and is wrong on almost all counts here.
[QUOTE=298]Double-post because I didn't see CropCircles post.
With Puzzle now apparently cleared of being in the Cowell group, I think that just emphasises the likelihood that Puzzle's connection with Kenji is cult.
Much as I would like to jump all over CropCircles for not coming out sooner, I would have to do the same to Axelrod and also vote for Fayul on the LAL principle, and... yeah. Say, CropCircles, don't suppose your role-name is connected to the music business?[/QUOTE]I have a mental image of Hades from the Hercules movie attempting to freestyle rap. :o
[QUOTE=307][Quote=Kenji]
It's been confirmed by the Mod that I have no vote... I think that makes you wrong.[/quote]
Nope.
It's been confirmed by the Mod that you have no vote. I think that fact makes you not a townie. Especially with only 13 townies out of 20 players, for any of the townies to not have a vote effectively reduces us to 12 votes ON DAY 1. We'd barely have a majority of the votes right now.
Also, you know I wasn't claiming you were lying about the no vote ability, I've mentioned it a couple of times that that's confirmed. Misrepresenting people is not a townie move.
[Quote=Kenji]
Wait... how do I have any connection to Puzzle? I have absolutly no connection to Puzzle, and yet here you are saying that I am a Cult Leader and have recruited him... Where is your evidence for this?[/quote]
The connection part of the argument isn't really based on what you did but rather on what Puzzle did. Puzzle became suspicious at least in part because of his defense of you and the way he set about it. He appeared to have some extra knowledge to clear you or be convinced that you're telling the truth about the lynch ability, didn't seem too concerned about you using it after a couple of days, that sort of thing. Between that and his use of the word "idol" (which I never picked up on, but several others did), there appeared to be a connection.
Puzzle being a Cowell fan would have explained a lot of that away, but he's not one. Because he's a confirmed watcher, I don't think Puzzle can be mafia, so you can't be scum buddies together.
BUT you could be cult buddies together. Simon Cowell as cult leader is perfectly believable (and Fayul and Axelrod have said their PM hints that Cowell might not be a townie). And if you're going to recruit someone night 1, an analyst like Puzzle makes a lot of sense as the recruit.
There's also the issue of your own behaviour, contrasting your threats to randomly lynch to the sudden change of heart and acting all noble with
[Quote=Kenji]
would it be easier on the town if I let myself be lynched today? I give my word that I will not interfere with the lynch if it appears that I will be lynched.[/quote]
To me, it seems you were doing anything to deter a lynch, then making fake offers to make yourself look good once you thought the heat was off.
I am surer of you being non-town than I am of Verbal, and only the possibility that you aren't bluffing is keeping me from just calling for your lynch right now and being done with it.
Also, Puzzle is totally giving the game away at this point with continuing poor argument. I almost wonder if this is a sign of someone restricted from spilling the beans but who privately wants us to knock off Kenji and release him from cultist hell
[Quote=Puzzle]
I'm almost sure he is NOT a cult leader because there are 4 persons with the fan win condition, which means he has it and the numbers then don't stack up anymore.
The cult leader should have only one win condition. and be independant from the fans, given the numbers.[/quote]
How do the numbers not stack up for Kenji to be cult leader, Puzzle?
20 players.
13 town, 5 mafia, 1 cult leader, 1 something else = 20.
The 4 cowell fans are then added to those as alternate win conditions for people in any of those groups. A cowell fan could be a townie, or a mafia, or a cult leader, or a something else. There's no reason why any of them can't have the Cowell fan extra condition. Cult leader and SK are usually sucky jobs who rarely win, so it's handy for them to get an additional win condition to try for (and which they can use their other powers to try and help happen).
I'm still pretty sure the best course of action is to lynch Verbal and vig Kenji, but I'm fairly open to just calling the bluff, lynching Kenji and leaving tomorrow's lynch for whatever info we get overnight. The thing about killing Kenji is that without a vote, he's no help to the town. We lose no votes by killing him, we lose no useful ability by killing him... there's no downside. I don't believe there's ever a townie who there's no downside to killing. I keep coming back to this as a reason why he MUST be non-town. I think he made a huge slip by giving away his lack of vote.
Repeating: Finger of Dead Certainty on Kenji with recommendation to vig until he's dead, dead, dead, with the possibility to upgrade that to a vote if need be.[/QUOTE]Further attack on Kenji. Keeps suspicions on Puzzle, but on a different basis. His suspecting Kenji to be cult leader and Puzzle cult member is assuming too much. There's no way that we could be remotely sure of that, and is poor logic against Kenji.
[QUOTE=322]
We only have the word of the Cowell group that their win condition is that they be the sole survivors (which is insanely difficult and won't happen). This is the second win condition claimed by members of the group, following Fayul's much more dangerous claim. We'd be crazy to take them at their word given the amount of fudging that's been going on there, and it's much safer to have one of them dead by the morning of day 2.
Even in the scenarios where Kenji could come in handy, any other townie (who has an actual vote) would be better.
In addition, Kenji's death gives us information. Helps clear (not completely, but helps) the rest of the group if he's scum. Narrows down the field a bit if he's not.
The other bit of info we have today (which no-one seems to have looked at yet) is the Puzzle bandwagon. We don't know Puzzle's alignment for sure, but I'm pretty convinced he's not mafia (whatever else he may be). Makes sense at least one mafia would have piggybacked that one and egged it on. Might go consider that one.[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't make sense for the Cowell group to be lying as at least some of them have to be town, and their AWC was pretty much lost at this point.
[QUOTE=339]I don't see where Kenji's seemed innocent, I really don't. He seems to have said anything that will deter us from lynching him today, safe in the knowledge that in this game no ability is too odd to be disbelieved (even if it's an ability which is basically designed so we'll back off lynching him even if we think he's scummy). His posts regarding the Puzzle bandwagon were having it a bit both ways without committing. First Puzzle "intrigued" him, then we got
[Quote=Kenji]
Just to make sure I am not misunderstood, in no way am I saying that I don't think Puzzle is scum (I do not know if he is townie, scum or other at the moment), I am just saying that this lynch on him is foolish.[/quote]
. Puzzle's defence of Kenji has been raised in detail already, but included weird comments on when Kenji should use the lynch, certainty that Kenji could be cleared by day 3 (or that he at least shouldn't be vigged until then), certainty that he couldn't have the same win condition as the rest of the Cowell fans if he was a SK. The Puzzle bandwagon was somewhat about Kenji (my vote certainly, and Azrael voted in response to Puzzle's comments regarding when Kenji should use his ability, can't speak for the rest). Just because Puzzle has a claim that satisfies me he's not MAFIA doesn't mean I automatically ignore odd arguments. There's too much oddity in this discussion, and it's centered on Kenji.
In addition, Kenji's proven drawback (lack of vote) is very untownielike.
The only things I see in his favour are that he has been relatively open about his claim.
On the balance though, I see a kill that:
a) I believe has a strong chance of being a scum of some type
b) Gives us information about the trustworthiness of other people (the Cowell fans definitely, Puzzle possibly) either way
c) Removes all temptation for the townie Cowell fans to mislead the town
d) If wrong, would do less damage than a lynch of any other townie due to Kenji's lack of vote
e) If it's not a bluff and Kenji IS a townie and CAN redirect lynches, he might just get to live even if we try. It's so a bluff, though. I can't believe this is being accepted so easily. I partially blame myself for keeping on talking about vigging him to dodge the chance of him redirecting a lynch, and partially Puzzle for leading the argument that Kenji can't be scum because a scum wouldn't be able to redirect (without ever admitting that the redirect isn't proven, and can't be proven without something rather drastic).
I'm torn here because I don't want to lose track of Verbal either and he I think is actual mafia and not just SK/cult. I'm not usually spoiled for choice of targets on day 1. This Cowell thing has certainly got people talking... well, some people anyhow. And the people in the background are all the more scummy/poor players for staying in the background when there's been so much to talk about.[/QUOTE]Torn between 2 now confirmed townies...
[QUOTE=357]
Fayul- It'd be kind of nice to know what Chamber is thinking, though, as compared to what you're thinking.
Axelrod: The message about "other than kills and investigations" hadn't been put up when I put in my choices (as some people have mentioned, it went up late), so I didn't know about it to forget. It went through anyway, which says more than I'd necessarily want to reveal at this stage.
Azrael: I don't really buy your hypotheticals that Kenji is useful. Unless you're arguing that we have a no-lynch today, SOMEONE will die. You can't just compare a situation with x town and y mafia to x town, y mafia and Kenji, or suggest that if we have townie Kenji instead of a mafia that's a good thing because duh. If you look it at in situations where we have Kenji alive instead of another townie, Kenji's lack of vote loses games any other townie makes winnable. Even in games still winnable, townieKenji's lack of vote would make it harder, we need more townies united to get a majority. If he really has the redirect ability, than yeah, I suppose he can win stuff by lynching a mafia that the town wasn't otherwise going to lynch. It's not exactly something to rely on, althought I guess the ability to overrule the town on occasion would be nice if you back your own judgment.
Obviously if we believe Kenji is a townie we're better off lynching someone else who we think is a scum. I don't believe he's a townie, though. And my point about his lack of vote is that it does us less damage to be wrong about Kenji than we usually would. It is pretty much impossible to prove ANYTHING in this game. Even a claimed inspector may be lying or insane, or the person inspected may be a godfather or a miller. Kenji can't prove he's innocent and I can't prove he's guilty, but on the balance I think he's more likely than not scum and as a bonus I know we're not risking killing off a claimed power role as has been known to happen with some day 1 lynches. It seems very low risk to me for a good chance of reward.
jc: Um, you say Kenji's redirect claim can't be a bluff because the lack of vote makes him weak? What if instead of the redirect ability he's the SK, or a cult leader, or a mafia investigator, or... etc. I'm not saying he's bluffing and has NO ability, I'm saying he's bluffing about what his power ability is. He's claimed an ability which has no point other than deterring a lynch. It's less boring than the standard "I'm the doctor" scum claim, I give him that. To turn your argument around a little bit, he has no vote which is a big drawback if he's a townie so he should have some power ability to make up for it. But his claimed ability is weak on a townie. So he's probably not a townie even if he has that ability. And if he's lying about his ability, he's also not a townie. I'm fine with having Kenji vigged rather than lynched as long as he actually gets vigged. Don't want to give the suspected cult leader/SK many nights to work with.
My vote, so far as I recall, remains on Verbal on that basis of Kenji being vigged. I honestly think we have a good chance here to get a scum day 1 and another type of scum night 1 and get a good start to this game.[/QUOTE]More Kenji attacks...
[QUOTE=410]That's just way too insane and pointless a plan, CropCircles. The 4th fan could have been a townie coming out to say "gotcha!" or a mafia/SK coming out to say "gotcha!" with the idea of looking good by catching a false-claimer as you say. I don't see what it was meant to have achieved.
What's interesting to me is that no-one did come out to jump on it. It's certainly arguable this is a sign of a mafia not wanting to attract attention, also arguable it's the sign of an innocent not wanting to fog things by adding himself to the town's hitlist, also arguable it means the 4th fan is a lurker who wasn't paying attention (or indeed could be chamber, although you'd think another fan wouldn't have any issues with revealing themselves to Fayul, assuming Fayul is telling the truth). Or CropCircles could actually be the 4th fan while trying not to look like the 4th fan, in which case he knew all along that no-one would counterclaim.
That last option makes a lot of sense to me, actually. I'm almost certain a townie 4th fan would have counterclaimed, but at the same time CropCircle's own argument- that a scum 4th fan would have counterclaimed to try and make himself look good by catching out a false claim- is a good one. That no-one counterclaimed is dead suspicious.
Azrael: No. Why? No particular reason why the Cowell group can't be 2 townies, 1 mafia, 1 SK or cult. Even if CropCircles could prove to us that we had a mafia 4th fan out there, it wouldn't clear Kenji. I'm not trying to get him lynched anyway, out of practicality. I'd still like him vigged, though.[/QUOTE]Suspects me of claiming fan so I wouldn't look like the 4th fan. Says Kenji is still not cleared, but ignores the fact that his chances of being scum are reduced.
[QUOTE=424]Not a fan, not fictional[/QUOTE]
Stunning.
[QUOTE=444]Holding for the moment because neither Kofi Annan nor roleblocker are inherently townie, and I want to clarify something. Fayul- does your ability roleblock, or does it only postblock?[/QUOTE]
Asks a perfectly reasonable question.
[QUOTE=461]My point in asking Fayul whether she's a roleblocker or just a postblocker was of course to see how many roleblocker type roles we have. Since we don't seem to have duplication I was inclined to back off a bit, but Verbal's latest defence has restored my faith in the bandwagon.
Acting like confirming his ability proves anything (could easily be a mafia roleblocker), acting like he may have had better false claims (why would you claim false when you can claim your real ability?), acting like the name of Kofi Annan should mean anything in random mafia (leaving aside not knowing what the mod thinks of Annan, why would we have a good-bad split of characters? Where does Britney Spears come into that? My role is also neither inherently good nor evil. Name claims don't prove anything here)
Attempting to trick the town into confirming you by confirming your ability, raising the irrelevant and in any event WIFOM argument of whether you had better false claims, raising an irrelevant argument based on your role name. You did have a couple of valid point, I don't think it's fair to raise arguments that your ability is too simple. It also makes sense that you'd be suspicious of Fayul if you really are a townie roleblocker, since I think a lot of us were unsure as to if Fayul claimed roleblocking.
But since you finished with
[Quote=Verbal]
My claim is pretty easy to prove. Why not lynch someone without these qualities?[/quote]
, I think your attempt to BS the town overrides your legitimate arguments. Yes, your claimed ABILITY is pretty easy to prove, but you've said nothing about proving which side you're on. Too keen to have the town believe you're confirmed when you aren't.
Vote on Verbal stands.[/QUOTE]Reasonable.
[QUOTE=530]
[Quote=Azrael]
Heheh. A good night's work for the town.
The nice thing about resurrecting Verbal would be that we would get another night role, and a confirmed townie (or two) at the same time. But on the other hand, if we can keep CC alive for a little longer, we should be able to use him to revive a dead cop or doc. Right now, I'd say the odds of his survival are pretty good, so I'm inclined to see if we can save his ability a little bit longer.[/quote]
Maybe. Presumably someone got a successful protect last night, but one never knows what the doc's going to do (or what they should do). Verbal back alive sounds like the safe bet. CC- do we get him back alive immediately, or only tonight or tomorrow?
[Quote]
Another point of interest is CP's remark that "someone must have had their suspicions". It would seem that he's either attempting to be a bastard mod, or he's hinting that we had an aggressive vig at work. That would be somewhat unusual though, considering the existence of the two possible "SK" win conditions that Turbo informed us of. Something we'll have to watch for, in the future.[/quote]
OK, I need to reveal something very weird that happened to me in the night because it connects with musashi.
I got an investigation result of innocent on musashi. This was not my doing. I wasn't doing anything in musashi's direction, investigatory or otherwise. The message confirmed that I was the person intended to receive that even though it seemed like it had nothing to do with me.
It's possible that we have an inspector who got suspicious of musashi and who's inspects go to other people (and who was just unfortunate to inspect the godfather). Also possible that the mafia have the ability to send fake info to people. I have no idea.
Quote:
Building off of yesterday, I'm having some increased misgivings about the role RafaelK was playing. He seemed to be jumping from wagon to wagon almost indiscriminately, and repeatedly advocated ideas such as a Kenji lynch or vig-kill. I think neither of those plans would have resulted in any good for the town, and his voting record: vigorously attacking Puzzle, Kenji, and Verbal, is the scummiest we've seen so far.
I take umbrage at the word "indiscriminately", my good sir. I stayed absolutely focussed on Puzzle until he proved himself (and hey, weren't you also strongly on that wagon? You were!). I think there were good reasons for that one. Heck, Verbal- confirmed townie- stayed on it even after most of us thought Puzzle was clear. Then I went for Verbal and stayed on that all the way to the lynch. I did throw a lot of suspicion the way of Kenji during that. I'm still very suspicious of Kenji. Nothing says we can only be suspicious of one scum at a time.
I was definitely wrong on Verbal. The door is still potentially open for something to be wrong on Puzzle, but in any event to call me scummy for the Puzzle wagon would be hypocritical Az. And unless you're possessed of magic information that I don't have that clears Kenji, I don't see why you're so sure that it was scummy to be suspicious of Kenji. I still think Kenji should have been vigged. If I was wrong on Kenji too it doesn't do much damage; if I'm right we remove a threat. Either way we gain information on the fan group, quite possibly getting their real win condition, narrowing down the suspects or helping clear a few people, AND removing the temptation for the townie fans to screw the rest of us over. I don't call that a plan likely to damage the town.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=576]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelK
I take umbrage at the word "indiscriminately", my good sir. I stayed absolutely focussed on Puzzle until he proved himself (and hey, weren't you also strongly on that wagon? You were!). I think there were good reasons for that one. Heck, Verbal- confirmed townie- stayed on it even after most of us thought Puzzle was clear. Then I went for Verbal and stayed on that all the way to the lynch. I did throw a lot of suspicion the way of Kenji during that. I'm still very suspicious of Kenji. Nothing says we can only be suspicious of one scum at a time.
I was on the wagon because of his random-kill suggestion, up until he claimed Night watchman. After that, I immediately came to his defense, whereas many players, including you, continued to push him for additional role information, despite the strong evidence in his favor.
Yeah, see, now you're trying to re-write history. Some would call it "lying".
After Puzzle claimed, I was off the wagon before you were. Which makes sense, seeing as I was the one who confirmed his watcher ability.
What's even MORE interesting is that the person who DID push Puzzle further after he claimed was *Verbal*, and I was the one who came to Puzzle's defence (after all, it's me who confirmed his watcher ability). But apparently now the person who continued to push Puzzle is scum and the person who came to his defense is the noble one...
While there's still that contradiction (a few posts ago, attacking Verbal = scum, suddenly people who continued to press Puzzle- such as Verbal?- = scum), I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were getting me confused with someone else as to my actions. That's way too ham-fisted to be a real attempt at slipping through some revisionist history.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=626]
I'd certainly like to hear why Stevie vigged musashi, at any rate.
Given that Hawkeye's viggings won the game for the town in English Literature mafia so recently, I'm certainly not against reasoned aggressive viggings (still against random night 0 shots though). Well, not while I'm town.
Of course vig is always a nice claim for a SK, especially after they just killed a mafia, but you can't have everything.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=650]This looks supremely odd, but I'm in a rush and don't have time to check whether this vote would be fatal. So FOS Stevie and I'll come back to think about it some more and probably convert to a vote in a few hours.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=657]
Ooh, nice pickup. Mine too. I should have remembered that, since my "from" isn't exactly what I would have expected it to be and I made a note of that when I got my role.
Requiring a vote count from carrion and a REALLY good explanation from stevie at this point.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=670]
Still waiting on Stevie, although there are limits to how long I'll wait (especially if he's logging in but not posting).
Good one Verbal I'd noticed that too but I was holding off on mentioning it to give Stevie the opportunity to hang himself (if he's scum) by claiming to have investigated someone on night 0.
In the absence of that tactic, the no-investigations night 0 seems to me to vaguely support his claimed abilities in that it dodges the issue of whether 0 counts as an "even" night for his investigations. Having his first investigation only after his first mandatory kill would help balance the ability too. Of course, what that still doesn't explain is how he spotted musashi, which is the really weird part of this.
Re: why Turbo over Puzzle? It's quite possible they intended to kill Puzzle and block Turbo. It's also possible they didn't think Puzzle would watch their chosen killer last night so figured to block Turbo's unknown ability, leave Puzzle alone for a night and kill someone else. Heck, we may have a roleblocking doctor. But I don't think there's anything in speculation that Turbo being roleblocked makes Puzzle more suspicious.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=729]Well, that saves me the trouble of bandwagonning Az today. If not for the existence of the Stevie wagon, or if Stevie was cleared, I would have done it yesterday after he tried to use his position as an analyst to blatantly mislead the town. VERY interesting to see he's the 4th fan too. Of course, we only have one fan left now. Bad night for team Cowell.
I was roleblocked last night. Perhaps I had something to do with the uneventful night 2 or maybe someone only thought I did (and if it was you Verbal, I'd really appreciate hearing about this). It was certainly a lot more eventful with me surpressed
It's past 11pm here and I only got home hald an hour ago (stupid job). I'll try to get some actual analysis in tomorrow, we're at an important point of the game and I don't want to just throw some random opinion in.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=763]I was fairly suspicious of silicon on day 1, and I think I said so, but I can't remember why anymore. Something along the lines of egging people on without actually contributing. I'd really have to go do a PBPA at this point to see if it's held up, but I believe that people want the more confirmed posters to do the PBPAs so I'll wait for that.
I'm starting to look at jc a bit more just because he was kind of alongside me on a lot of stuff on which I was wrong. I'm fully aware of the thin ice under that particular line of thought
And I think if we were to throw both MoT and YANP against a wall, we'd probably discover one is silly and one is a silly mafia, but how to tell which one?
I'm VERY interested in the fact that the public soul-taking and the jaws of life have not recurred.
The presence of the cult-leader complicates things. A lot.
Kenji- ok, you were given a message last night you were roleblocked. You wouldn't happen to have got any messages the PREVIOUS night?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=15]Ah, so we've started already.
I like Az' idea that the non-posting idea may have been used on chambers to give a mafia a reason to lurk. But since we can't get any information from chambers today, that doesn't really help us... yet. I hope the mod plans to send him a prodding PM at the end of this day, though. That sort of role is a great way to make someone forget they're in the game
Certainly be interesting to hear from Puzzle.
My suspicion re: the jaws of life is that it's a role (roleblocker ability, maybe? Who knows in this game) that went for someone who was being protected by multiple people.
Oh, one last thing- if you play Mafia on News under a different name to here, could you let me know?[/QUOTE]Day 1 specultion. Thrilling.
[QUOTE=60]
Hmm. On the one hand, an ability preventing someone from posting WOULD seem like a mafia ability (lowering communication). Preventing a townie from voting is VERY strong late in the game, however. I've only seen that sort of ability once, and it was on a townie (Pibbly in Dunwich mafia, although it was publically announced that the ability was his). He used it only once that game, late in the game to shut Dusk the hell up on the day Dusk was going to be lynched anyway.
What's keeping me feeling this might be a mafia job anyway is I don't see why a townie would randomly shut someone up night 1. I don't agree with night 1 viggings but I see why some people do them anyway (bloodthirsty glory-hound gambling sods). I don't see why any townie would do a night 1 silencing.
Fact is, we're not going to lynch chamber. He can't respond, and there's no particular reason to believe he's mafia other than speculation that not being able to talk is a great excuse for a mafia to lurk day 1 and not give anything away.
I am concerned about the soul-loss thing. If not for this being so random, I'd simply say it can't be good so let's lynch Puzzle and see what we learn. But between randomness and the fact it was publically announced, there's no guarantee that anything's wrong with Puzzle.
Not really picking up much of anything to base a suspicion off otherwise. Kenji's vote for a player who can't speak (more silly than scummy, I think), both Zoob and jcsuperstar apparently trying to establish that the post-blocker will be seen as mafia if they come out (an understandable opinion), Stevie encouraging the post-blocker to come out because it's not a power role although that will narrow down the list of people are could be (but not by much, and we might get a better idea of how the game works so we can catch up with the mafia who presumably have access to several role PMs).
If there's anyone who hasn't posted, or who only posted to check in, I suggest they weigh in with an opinion sooner rather than later.[/QUOTE]More speculation on Fayul's ability, and a call for lurkers to come out. I really don't disagree with anything here.
[QUOTE=70]
Fayul:
-is Chamber one of those people you had to find, or are you still 3 away?
-must you find them by using your ability? Or is it just if you all find out each other's name?
-do you get told the people's name/ability, or do you have to rely on them to tell you (in which case they may be lying)?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Bill Gates?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Scrooge McDuck?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to The Human Torch?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Mick Jagger?
-Do you have any connection whatsoever to Jared, the Subway guy?
(that last lot is deliberately cryptic. Only one of them, as far as I know, has to do with anything. Bear with me.)[/QUOTE] The first three questions are perfectly logical at this point. The "deliberately cryptic" ones on the other hand make me wonder.
[QUOTE=82]
My suspicion is that the other people involved know nothing of Fayul's (and now Kenji's) alternate win condition and don't gain anything by helping them out. However, don't make it obvious that you're not one of their people either, since that narrows down their choices.
I echo that people should not volunteer information to Fayul and Kenji until we work out what the heck is going on here. Try to fish without giving away your role name to them.
I read Dollar mafia here recently, so I'm certainly aware of games in which townies can have additional win conditions. Attempts to pursue a win instead of all-mafia-dead, a win that the rest of the town won't share, are NOT additional. They are a threat to the town, just like an SK.
That neither of them was under pressure to make the claim was interesting. It suggests that both believe they have nothing to hide and really are helpful townies (that, or that this is the best way for them personally to win the game). Not that it's unheard of for scum to make brazen day 1 claims and be believed because after all, why would a scum claim something scummy-sounding on day 1 without any pressure?
Round in circles we go. Once our two extra-win-condition people read their PMs again and answer everyone's questions, we'll see where we go from there.[/QUOTE] I'm assuming this means that the cryptic questions before have something to do with his role, and he was trying to se if he was one of the ones Fayul was looking for without giving away his role name. If this isn't the case, I have no idea what he was getting at. If that was what he was doing, then his statement that we shouldn't offer information to Fayul and Kenji is a contridiction.
Other then that, he points out that the alternate win condition is anti-town, which is true. Not much else to make of that...
[QUOTE=89]I'm puzzled as to why Puzzle is up in arms about who the doc protects. I don't see why the mafia would nightkill either of Fayul or Kenji and I don't see why we want a doc to protect either of them. Arguably the doc should protect Turbo (if he doesn't spill the beans) or just go out among everyone else and hope to protect the person the mafia is trying to kill. The worst thing about all these revelations is it's helping the mafia narrow down who the actually dangerous people might be. Why would they kill fayul or kenji or even turbo when they know that none of these people are a cop or a doc?
Turbo suddenly speaking up, I don't know whether that's unfortunate or not. In case of death or silencing happening, you might want to give us that information before the opportunity is lost. I don't really see much use in keeping it back now that the mafia know someone has that data, and so can't be taken by surprise. At the least, the numbers you believe to be the number of townies/mafia should be given- alternate win conditions are the only stuff we can ambush with, so they're the only stuff worth holding back (although if you die without spilling those, we lose the ability to try and break things with a mass claim later). HOWEVER- as Puzzle says, whatever you end up doing don't spill anything until after Fayul has talked a bit more. And don't give away your role name.[/QUOTE] Wonders about Puzzles weirdness and seems to advocate Turbo revealing his info. Nothing scummy here...
[QUOTE=128]Hmph. Fayul, I don't know why you lied first up. Your original claim was much more threatening. Now, as Puzzle says, you're an asset to the town (if telling the truth). I certainly don't blame chambers for being unwilling to tell you his role name, though.
One thing's for sure- that win condition makes no sense if all of the Cowell group are townie. Frankly, I now want to know who the other two are. Not what their special abilities are, just who the two other fans of Cowell are.
Re: Kenji
-Lack of vote apparently confirmed. This is a powerful drawback, especially late game, but for both a townie and a mafia so it doesn't prove anything. If the mafia win condition is the usual "equal the town in number" thing, it's less of a drawback for the mafia than might be expected since they can win even if they don't technically have 50% of the votes, whereas it's a VERY big drawback for the town since if Kenji is one of the last townies the mafia can force a win when they still have less than 50% of the people.
-If we believe Kenji is a townie and never try to lynch him, he is strictly worse than a vanilla townie. He has no abilities to interfere with the mafia, and he's deadweight in the endgame. The mafia will never kill him either, since he's 100% no threat to them.
-If Kenji is mafia/SK AND telling the truth about his ability to move lynches, then he's got a bit of a drawback but has the ability to ensure he takes one townie with him which is a very strong balance (especially for an SK, since in the pinch it takes two days to kill him if there's no vig left, and on the first day he effectively gets an extra kill).
-If Kenji is mafia/SK, though, he's quite possibly lying about the second part of his ability to try and discourage a lynch, and in fact has some other strong ability (like serial-killing?).
Frankly, my BS detector is going off here. If Kenji is town, he's not very useful at all since he has no vote so there's minimal downside (plus we'll at least have narrowed down who out of the Cowell group is scum/SK). If he's SK or mafia, he's incredibly dangerous. And either way, getting Kenji apparently removes an alternate win condition from the game. The risk/reward is incredibly good for us given that it's a day 1 lynch and those usually royally suck. My only concern is he might be telling the truth on the lynch ability and so we should hope we have a vig and appeal for a nightkill.[/QUOTE]Here he starts his attack on Kenji. It's obvious that he can't be mafia, but at this point it was entirely possible for him to be a SK.
[QUOTE=142]Kenji, if you're a townie, that's the last thing you should be doing. Heck, mafia is a team game unless you're an SK. Individual townies don't need to be alive for the town to win. And because you have no vote, even if you're a townie, losing you doesn't actually hurt the town. But it will help us narrow down who in your Cowell group is a scum/SK, and it will let the town move on instead of fixating on what you are. If you could help the town, that'd be one thing, but since the town doesn't lose a single vote or anti-mafia ability killing you, well... that's way better than most 1st day lynches for the town, even if you are a townie.
I don't believe we can trust you with any plan, whether to deflect the lynch to someone else of our choosing or to refuse to deflect the lynch at all and take it for the good of the town. I don't believe you're a townie either, why would you talk about randomly getting someone lynched? How does that help anyone? You have no vote, which fits well with winning by an alternate means, but not with helping the town win. You suggest randomly using your ability to get someone else "randomly" killed.
Gut feeling says you're a SK/cult leader, and that we should have you vigged tonight. You got overexcited when you realised that one of your targets (for recruitment or death, I don't know) announced themselves to you and gave away too much. It happens.
FOS-with-a-recommendation-to-have-nightkilled: Kenji
If we just go ahead and leave Kenji to the mercy of night abilities, I can wait for the Cowell group I think. If he's scum of some sort, then there's no reason for the Cowellites to pop up. If he IS a voteless townie, then we can ask again politely, and anyone who doesn't pop up immediately but whom is subsequently identified as a Cowell fan will have lots of explaining to do.
However, if we do leave Kenji for the night, what do we do today?[/QUOTE]
This is in response to Kenji threatening to fire randomly. I can agree with most of this until he gets to the part about Kenji getting over excited. I think that's a pretty bad way to explain Kenji's claim. Either a mafia twisting evidence, or a townie in need of a :chillpill:
[QUOTE=153]I don't even pretend to understand Puzzle (although I am starting to wonder if he's a Cowell fan trying to preserve his idol). At any rate, I'll go with him this far-it's not a good idea to lynch Kenji today. I disagree with having him fire his ability to check his claim, though, and I imagine he'll object to that too (whether because he's lying or he doesn't want to lose his ability to spite us if we try to lynch him).
So, Kenji, can we have an agreement that you won't decide today's lynch if we don't try to lynch you today?
If we find a Cowell fan who hasn't come out, that's going to look reaaaaally bad (cunning plans are no excuse). I can't see any downside to the town to have everyone know who the Cowell fans are. It doesn't expose their abilities to the mafia. If someone can find a downside, then explain it fairly soon. Please, if you're a townie and you're a Cowell fan, stand up and help us out here.
Puzzle- I'm sorry, why should we be getting "back" to the Verbal lynch? I wasn't aware that most of us had even given the time of day to a bandwagon on Verbal.
So...
Verbal wagon, two votes. Puzzle- voted Verbal in response to
[QUOTE=Verbal]Oh, really?
I suggest that having 8 players with these mason-esque alternate win conditions is highly unlikely. I suggest that fayul or kenji or both are mafia or serial killers.
I seriously think we should lynch one of them today on the grounds that frankly they may win tonight (if fayul's the accurate pm reader).[/QUOTE]
It seems a fairly reasonable assertion to a lot of players that one of the Cowell group is likely to be anti-town, and Fayul DID initially claim an awfully quick winning method. Yet Puzzle puts a vote in the very next post, stating:
[quote=Puzzle]Puzzle
The most scummy thing I've seen so far is your will to lynch one of them without actually knowing what's going on.[/quote]
And given that Verbal's previous post hadn't even contained a vote, that's quite a stretch. I don't think Verbal ever said he didn't want to know what was going on.
Of course, even dodgier was Stevie's immediate addition to the wagon:
[quote=StevieT92]Unvote, Vote Verbal
Finally, something concrete to go on. I like this bandwagon, as I tend to think Verbal and Kenji are cleared. (Again the only way they could be scum is with someone who can come up with great plans for the mafia) Also, I'm leaving today[/quote]
I assume he meant Fayul and Kenji. Still total BS. There's no reason why they couldn't be telling the truth about having a an alternate win-condition group and still be on opposite sides. Heck, IIRC Stevie was a mafia who was masons with a townie during Dollar mafia, and they had connected (though opposing) win conditions. I don't see why he'd assume any weird group scenario couldn't happen.
Stevie's speed to jump onto someone else's bandwagon for BS reasons is dead scummy to me. Puzzle is behaving strangely and is now eager to return to a nowhere bandwagon inhabited only by himself and Stevie. I don't know who to choose. I was initially going to say Stevie, but I'm going to be arrogant and just assume for now that Stevie's vote was being silly while in a rush to say something before going on vacation. Puzzle's dodginess has come out in more than one post. Vote Puzzle[/QUOTE]Wrong choice, buddy. Regardless, I think this is a pretty fair analysis of the situation at hand.
[QUOTE=175][qoute=Puzzle]
What would my interest be in preserving my idol ? Everyone can now easily prevent the group of four from winning.[/quote]
What is this wine I see in front of me? Just because we CAN stop the 4 doesn't mean you can't try to talk us into plans that involve killing none of the 4. This statement of yours is really disingenuous at best.
[Quote=Puzzle]
I'll also repeat that there is no need for Kenji to fire today. As we are not in a lynch-or-lose situation, his ability is not an immediate danger, so it doesn't hurt. We can always make him spit it out later, as long as we are far enough from the danger zone. It wouldn't be the end of the world to have him fire today but there is no rush for that, imo.[/quote]
Not the end of the world, maybe, but what benefit is there for the town in having Kenji determine the lynch at all? Ever? The best case scenario would be Kenji volunteering to auto-lynch the person the town was going to lynch anyway and thus disarming himself. Which I sincerely doubt will ever happen.
[Quote=Puzzle]
Seconded, with an opening to having him lynch the person of the town's choice at the very end of the day, although I'd rather avoid that right now (see above). Oh, and I repeat my strong opposition to his vigging.[/quote]
Good for you. I'm almost starting to come back from voting for you, just because I am becoming so convinced that you benefit from keeping him alive and are a Cowell fan, but then you could easily be the mafia Cowell fan.
[Quote=Puzzle]
I guess Axelrod's post makes sense about exposing the 2 other fans. Maybe this can wait a bit.[/quote]
Or maybe it's just nicely convenient for you to have someone else's argument to latch on to. I don't agree with Axelrod's argument. I know my role has 100% no connection to American Idol. We also know there's this soul-removal role and this Jaws of Life thing are around. This is random mafia, not AI mafia. I was amazed enough that there's apparently 3 roles which are all Cowell fans.
Remember, it makes literally no sense if the Cowell group are all town. Them being the sole survivors would just be a case of a town win (4 townies alive, no mafia or SK). And if the group already contains a scum, I don't buy that there's a 5th person outside the group also with a win condition based around eliminating them. How many scum do we need to be centered around this one group? That would seriously warp the entire game to be all about them (since you'd have one scum trying to kill everyone but those people, and one trying to kill them all including outing the scum in the group).
[Quote=Puzzle]
The problem is that at this point Verbal jumped to the conclusion that either or both were scum although he admittedly didn't know if they had the same win condition or not and ignoring that Fayul's abilities is very unlikely a scum's. And the scum could very well be one of the other fans.[/quote]
Who knows what ability is likely to be what's in this game? I see what you're saying about jumping to the concluson though. There's no reason to be suspicious of Fayul and Kenji only but not also of the others who haven't come out yet. Indeed, it makes Fayul and Kenji look a bit better that they've been willing to be forward while others in their group... not so much.
[Quote=Puzzle]
That's sort of how he won Dollar for the Mafia.[/quote]
As I read it, Dollar was won by the mafia because the town did a really, really stupid double lynch. Interestingly, they had two mason pairs which were each likely to contain a mafia (and which both DID contain a mafia), and they were on the edge of realising that in both cases. Some people did realise that. And yet, if they had to make a double lynch, they didn't make it of either of those pairs. Let's not make the same mistake here, hmm?
[Quote=Puzzle]
Can we please agree not to use the vig on Kenji before night 4, after day 3 (we began at night) ?[/quote]
I think you can see why I'm increadingly sure you're one of the Cowell fans. Hey, Fayul and Kenji, I figure that at least SOMEONE in this drama is town so I might get a straight answer: is your goal to survive past a certain day together, not to survive to the end of the game? Of course, it's possible that Puzzle alone gains something from this. Hey, perhaps it's because he's the scum of the group!
[Quote=Puzzle]
Well, now my point is out. Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.[/quote]
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.
[Quote=Puzzle]
Second misinterpretation.
I was trying at the same time :
- not to confirm Kenji officially too early, as this spreads the doc even more.
- to prevent his vig kill, which has been advocated by several and I admit crossed my mind before I thought of his chances of being scum.
I intended to confirm that Kenji is unlikely to be scum by day 3.[/quote]
-Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny. Even if he blasts someone with the auto-lynch today, he's far from confirmed. And even if he was confirmed, a townie without a vote is USELESS to the town (one of the reasons that makes me so suspicious of Kenji still) and is not requiring of doc protection. The way you keep waving doc protection like a banner is kind of scummy.
-And if you're so concerned about spreading doc protection, why say that YOU intend to confirm Kenji by day 3? If you actually are town, isn't that an open invitation for the mafia to knock you off if you're capable of confirming people? It's very nice for you, though, the way it would take a couple of days to do it and thus keep the town away from you for at least a couple of days while you try to arrange for something else to occupy our arguments. And then you get up and say "Kenji's a confirmed town! Yay!".
I don't believe you'd be trying to pull this stuff if you were town. It's not helpful.
Oh, and Fayul: is your role-name just "Cowell fan", or is it something else and the Cowell fan bit is just part of the description?[/QUOTE]
A few points on this one...
-His use of WIFOM seems out of place here. The Cowell group is also anti-mafia, so they wouldn't let them all live, so it really would be pointless for puzzle to preserve his "idol."
-He says he considered coming back from voting Puzzle because he suspected him of being a Cowell fan. But if Puzzle were a Cowell fan, he'd most likely be scum. Bad logic.
-I agree that Axelrod's reluctance to have the other 2 fans come out was also bad logic.
-He states that Kenji and Fayul look better since the other fans haven't come out, yet does not retract his statement that Kenji should be vigged.
-"Kenji is so far from confirmed it isn't funny." was just wrong. The other fans staying hidden made him partially confirmed.
[QUOTE=181]To silicon- not missing that at all. Just because he's calling for Cowell fans to come out doesn't mean that he's now one himself, just as someone saying they want to find the mafia doesn't mean they're not mafia. If he's a Cowell fan, now that we already know about the group anyway I'd expect him to want to know who the last person is.[/QUOTE]Nothing to see here.
[QUOTE=186]I don't want to get bogged down on whether Puzzle is a Cowell fan or not. It has implications, of course- maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's scum, or maybe he doesn't want to admit it because he's town and doesn't want to add himself to the chopping block order, and maybe he doesn't admit it because he's not actually a Cowell fan.
My position for now is that Puzzle is scummy- hence my vote. If he turns out to be a Cowell fan it might make me reconsider, since it would explain his adamance that Kenji is not scum and should not be killed or lynched, and that Kenji is somehow worthy of doc protection even though his stated abilities don't benefit the town at all.
Puzzle is acting as if he has inside information. We KNOW that there was no inspections night 1, or I would have long ago assumed he was hinting at cop and backed off a little. There's generally three ways to have inside information without inspection. Have the info in your role, be a mason, be a mafia. Mason appears to be out in this case, so he either has reason in his role to be so adamant about Kenji (Cowell fan, most likely) or he's a mafia and knows that Kenji's not one of his.
Re: CropCircles: IF he's a Cowell fan and not just a scum, then he'd like an excuse as to why he didn't come out. If he's found out it's one thing if he can say "I wanted to come out but the town was against it", but very different if it was him arguing to not come out. That's all reliant on him being one of the Cowell group, though. Otherwise, he's just being plain confusing, first backing one argument and then another.[/QUOTE]
Actually, there is another way to know if someone is town or not: logic. Whether Puzzle's logic was good or bad, that's another arguement. Either way, I wouldn't say this post is scummy. Puzzle was acting weird.
[QUOTE=192]
[Quote=Puzzle]
Ever considered :
1. that I may not be a Cowell fan ?[/quote]
Yup. I said that, in fact. My last post was kind of aimed at pointing out that you being a Cowell fan should not be taken as a given and noting how scummy you were being. I currently rank the chance of you being scum of some descritpion as greater than the chance of you being a townie Cowell fan. You just don't seem to have had the town's interests in mind with some of the stuff you've tried to pull.
[Quote=Puzzle]
2. reading my #164, first part as to why I think Kenji is very likely town ?[/quote]
I did answer that. Please don't do this "he's not paying attention to my answers" thing, it's annoying. I answered that directly in post 175. I even quoted that post of yours when I did it.
To save time for all concerned, I'll quote your first part of 164 here followed by the part of my post 175 which responded to that.
[Quote=Puzzle's post #164]
Kenji is almost a confirmed townie when you think of it :
- he can't be Mafia, his ability being too powerful for the late game (already discussed).
- and I strongly doubt he is a SK. If he was, he wouldn't have had the same win as the three others and wouldn't have found it, particularly after Fayul came forward with a wrong one.[/quote]
[Quote=Raf's post #175]
He has no vote (confirmed). Even for a mafia, that's a drawback to balance with a strong ability. Now, we only have his word that he even has this auto-lynch ability. It's effectively a daykill, and that's not horribly imbalanced, especially with a drawback and if the town have good abilities too (which is plausible). And if he's scum, he might not even have that, he might just be scaring us from lynching him. Considered that? But if you're the scum, you know the truth and that he has no reason to lie about his ability, and that might be why you're ignoring the possibility of him lying.
That's a bad reason why he can't be SK. He could easily have the same win as the others: only the Cowell people alive. That makes a lot of sense for an SK win condition in a large game, a bit less impossible than getting EVERYONE killed. And note that he DID find Fayul even though Fayul came forward with the wrong win condition. What do you mean he wouldn't have found it after Fayul come forward with the wrong condition? You're being way too illogical for anything but a desperation attempt to fog.[/quote]
Vote stands on Puzzle. His replies are just delaying tactics, not actually raising anything but attempting to put people off by referring to past posts and claiming people aren't responding and making contradictory claims to get people to run in circles. I fully expect you to say "I didn't see that you'd responded to that", but given that you quoted my post I expect you to have read it enough to know that I have most certainly considered that you're not a Cowell fan and that I've responded to your argument already.[/QUOTE]Continues the heated debate with Puzzle...
[QUOTE=203]
[Quote=StevieT92]
Yes, I agree with Axelrod, and I would vote puzzle if I wasn't already voting him.[/quote]
Actually, you're voting for Verbal in this thread.[/QUOTE]
An obvious scum tell. :rolleyes2:
[QUOTE=225]He's telling the truth so far as I did use an ability last night which targeted Axelrod. I sincerely doubt the mafia have a watcher, so I reckon that clears him of being mafia unvote Puzzle.
Verbal- pushing him for more info without waiting to see if I could confirm him? Painting him as suspicious because his role is bizarre (this is random mafia! of course it's bizarre!)? WE HAVE A WINNER! vote Verbal[/QUOTE]Quick to change targets, are we? This was the start up of the wagon that would be Verbal's demise.
[QUOTE=231]Verbal:
- I assumed you had already voted for Puzzle earlier. That you were egging it on WITHOUT having your vote recorded on the bandwagon doesn't make me less suspicious.
- Regarding consistency of roles... well, maybe. I can believe Arthur Dent would have abilities based on stuff he has rather than any inherent power. Yeah, Babel Fish to help him spy on people's movements is weird. What of it? He can't possibly have made that stuff up, so he does have the ability and if he has the ability and he feels the need to false-claim name he could have come up with any amount of false claims that'd be more "consistent" with a watcher ability.
-Now, posting to say it sounded like a weird role for Dent to have, that's one thing. Not voting for him because you're waiting for me to come along and confirm (or not confirm) Puzzle's claim, that's one thing. If that's all you did, it would make sense.
What I'm having trouble with is:
[Quote=Verbal]
exposing your other ability won't hurt the town, because we're about to lynch you.[/quote]
Why the heck would the town lynch him at that point? Let's put it another way. I have now come along and confirmed he knows what he's talking about. That's almost certainly not a mafia ability because it would make it too easy for them to narrow down the power roles (not every targeted role is a power role, of course, but all the usual power roles target people). Do you still think he should claim the other half of his role, and if so- why?
This just smells of an attempt to get more information while the pressure was still there. Your post wasn't just a waiting post, or just expressing doubts over the name. There was more to it.[/QUOTE]A good explanation, though he was still rather quick to vote.
[QUOTE=252]I think the general confusion is down to the way that we have at least a couple of townies who've either lied or are staying quiet on info the town would like to know.
My personal list of suspects is pretty long for just day 1. In no particular order:
Fayul (lied, and now continues to insist that Puzzle looks extremely mafia without actually explaining why)
Axelrod (late to come forward, created false choice in that Puzzle is not inherently more suspicious because a 4th fan doesn't come forward)
Kenji (does not have a vote or a pro-town ability, suspected of being scum by other Cowell fans, suddenly offering to make useless "noble sacrifice")
Verbal (overextending against Puzzle after Puzzle claimed)
silicon (repeatedly seemed way too sure of Puzzle's innocence before the claim but without really raising much in support, always a fun way to claim the high ground after the town lynches a townie without actually persuading them not to do it . Post 172 bothers me too. Perhaps it's the length without substance, culminating in two FOS without argument).
anyone who's hardly spoken (there's been enough going on that there's really no excuse to not have an opinion).
I clear Puzzle based on a verified ability that the mafia never have as far as I know, since knowing who's got the targeted abilities is way too good for the mafia.[/QUOTE]He's right in clearing Puzzle, but then he casts suspicion on all three Cowellites, despite the fact that the last fan was most likely to be scum. Not to mention that of the 5 he suspects, 4 are now confirmed, and silicon unknown.
[QUOTE=263]
Sorry to hear about that Axelrod (and silicon too). Best of luck to you and your families.
YANP: short form of the game's events
1. Night 1 was no kills, no inspections. Something happened involving The Jaws of Life and Puzzles soul was stolen. No idea what either of these meant.
2. Fayul came forward as a fan of someone, claiming a group of 4 that had to find each other to win.
3. Kenji came forward as the leader of the fan group, Simon Cowell, stating that the win condition for them to be the last 4 standing. Also says he has no vote (confirmed) and that he has the one-shot ability to change the day's lynch target (unconfirmed). Suspicions ensue.
4. Fayul says that Kenji got the win condition right. At some point later says her role-name is Britney Spears.
5. Puzzle's weird actions, especially in the manner of defending Kenji and apparently enouraging Kenji to randomly lynch someone, attract attention and a bandwagon spearheaded by me (though not just me, in all fairness, I will acknowledge being the loudest).
6. Puzzle claims Arthur Dent with a "watcher" ability and another ability he doesn't want to give away. The results of his watcher ability from night 1 were confirmed as true by me.
7. You can read the few pages for yourself. My personal view of it includes suspicion of Verbal and renewed weird actions by Kenji, but obviously YMMV.[/QUOTE]To be honest, I have no idea what YMMV stands for.
[QUOTE=268]Are they both the same player or something? Guys, no stupid arguments that spam up the thread, k?
Oh, and for future reference some details I missed from that first list due to my hurry:
1. Turbo claims to know how many win conditions there are in this game and how many people have each.
2. Axelrod claims to be the third of the Cowell group, but with a non-music-industry role name.
I'd totally forgotten Turbo's info, so let's get back to that for a second. Turbo- at the very least, could you tell us how many people are just straight pro-town (I'd assume it's the biggest number), and how many mafia you think there are? And is there indeed a win condition that 4 people have?[/QUOTE]In response to MoT's and YANP's little "debate."
[QUOTE=296]OK, analysis of the 13/5/4/1/1:
13 town
5 mafia
1 cult leader/SK1 neutral/SK
with 4 of the above being the Cowell fans in addition to whatever else they are. There's a couple of other possibilities if one of the Cowell fans has no other win conditions, since that would free up one of the "1"s to be an alternate win condition for a townie or mafia.
With 5 mafia and only 13 townies (and a couple of them compromised by the Cowell thing at that) AND the likelihood of a cult leader, I would find it staggering if there was also an SK because seriously, come ON, even with crossfire possibilities. This also to me reduces the odds of a mafia watcher who can not only see if someone was out at night but who can also see who they targeted. The mafia have a good numerical strength here. It's hard to believe they need strong abilities too.
If not for Turbo's other comments I wouldn't believe there'd be a cult given 13 townies vs 7 non-townies, and that it'd be 5 mafia and 2 individual SKs so that the town could get assistance from crossfire.
Oh, and 13 townies out of 20 players reinforces for me that it's really unlikely there's a townie without a vote which makes Kenji look even worse.
Re: Puzzle and soul-stealing....
With a cult looking really likely a distinct possibility that the soul-stealing represents either an immediate or delayed cult recruitment. Giving away the target isn't actually a big problem, because if we just keep lynching the recruited person we will LOSE. We have to find and destroy the cult leader first, although it would be handy if they hit mafia a couple of times (recruitment usually fails on mafia, since mafia changing teams always messes up games) and then find a way to give away that mafia to us. Cult leader deaths often have an effect on the rest of their cult... sometimes, all die together, sometimes the cultists get un-culted when the leader dies. If we have a cult, I'd be hoping for the latter.
The above is a roundabout way of saying I think the chance is increased that Puzzle is not clean, but that he's still a poor lynch target.
I also reiterate to have Kenji vigged. I think there's very good odds he's one of our "1"s as well as being Cowell. Kenji as cult leader and Puzzle as first cult recruit makes a lot of sense.
In the meantime, who's mafia? I still like Verbal, but I'm having to fight off an urge to vote for YANP for annoying me and acting like a n00b mafia who's doing stuff for the sake of appearing to do stuff.[/QUOTE]He continue's his "vig kenji" arguement and is wrong on almost all counts here.
[QUOTE=298]Double-post because I didn't see CropCircles post.
With Puzzle now apparently cleared of being in the Cowell group, I think that just emphasises the likelihood that Puzzle's connection with Kenji is cult.
Much as I would like to jump all over CropCircles for not coming out sooner, I would have to do the same to Axelrod and also vote for Fayul on the LAL principle, and... yeah. Say, CropCircles, don't suppose your role-name is connected to the music business?[/QUOTE]I have a mental image of Hades from the Hercules movie attempting to freestyle rap. :o
[QUOTE=307][Quote=Kenji]
It's been confirmed by the Mod that I have no vote... I think that makes you wrong.[/quote]
Nope.
It's been confirmed by the Mod that you have no vote. I think that fact makes you not a townie. Especially with only 13 townies out of 20 players, for any of the townies to not have a vote effectively reduces us to 12 votes ON DAY 1. We'd barely have a majority of the votes right now.
Also, you know I wasn't claiming you were lying about the no vote ability, I've mentioned it a couple of times that that's confirmed. Misrepresenting people is not a townie move.
[Quote=Kenji]
Wait... how do I have any connection to Puzzle? I have absolutly no connection to Puzzle, and yet here you are saying that I am a Cult Leader and have recruited him... Where is your evidence for this?[/quote]
The connection part of the argument isn't really based on what you did but rather on what Puzzle did. Puzzle became suspicious at least in part because of his defense of you and the way he set about it. He appeared to have some extra knowledge to clear you or be convinced that you're telling the truth about the lynch ability, didn't seem too concerned about you using it after a couple of days, that sort of thing. Between that and his use of the word "idol" (which I never picked up on, but several others did), there appeared to be a connection.
Puzzle being a Cowell fan would have explained a lot of that away, but he's not one. Because he's a confirmed watcher, I don't think Puzzle can be mafia, so you can't be scum buddies together.
BUT you could be cult buddies together. Simon Cowell as cult leader is perfectly believable (and Fayul and Axelrod have said their PM hints that Cowell might not be a townie). And if you're going to recruit someone night 1, an analyst like Puzzle makes a lot of sense as the recruit.
There's also the issue of your own behaviour, contrasting your threats to randomly lynch to the sudden change of heart and acting all noble with
[Quote=Kenji]
would it be easier on the town if I let myself be lynched today? I give my word that I will not interfere with the lynch if it appears that I will be lynched.[/quote]
To me, it seems you were doing anything to deter a lynch, then making fake offers to make yourself look good once you thought the heat was off.
I am surer of you being non-town than I am of Verbal, and only the possibility that you aren't bluffing is keeping me from just calling for your lynch right now and being done with it.
Also, Puzzle is totally giving the game away at this point with continuing poor argument. I almost wonder if this is a sign of someone restricted from spilling the beans but who privately wants us to knock off Kenji and release him from cultist hell
[Quote=Puzzle]
I'm almost sure he is NOT a cult leader because there are 4 persons with the fan win condition, which means he has it and the numbers then don't stack up anymore.
The cult leader should have only one win condition. and be independant from the fans, given the numbers.[/quote]
How do the numbers not stack up for Kenji to be cult leader, Puzzle?
20 players.
13 town, 5 mafia, 1 cult leader, 1 something else = 20.
The 4 cowell fans are then added to those as alternate win conditions for people in any of those groups. A cowell fan could be a townie, or a mafia, or a cult leader, or a something else. There's no reason why any of them can't have the Cowell fan extra condition. Cult leader and SK are usually sucky jobs who rarely win, so it's handy for them to get an additional win condition to try for (and which they can use their other powers to try and help happen).
I'm still pretty sure the best course of action is to lynch Verbal and vig Kenji, but I'm fairly open to just calling the bluff, lynching Kenji and leaving tomorrow's lynch for whatever info we get overnight. The thing about killing Kenji is that without a vote, he's no help to the town. We lose no votes by killing him, we lose no useful ability by killing him... there's no downside. I don't believe there's ever a townie who there's no downside to killing. I keep coming back to this as a reason why he MUST be non-town. I think he made a huge slip by giving away his lack of vote.
Repeating: Finger of Dead Certainty on Kenji with recommendation to vig until he's dead, dead, dead, with the possibility to upgrade that to a vote if need be.[/QUOTE]Further attack on Kenji. Keeps suspicions on Puzzle, but on a different basis. His suspecting Kenji to be cult leader and Puzzle cult member is assuming too much. There's no way that we could be remotely sure of that, and is poor logic against Kenji.
[QUOTE=322]
We only have the word of the Cowell group that their win condition is that they be the sole survivors (which is insanely difficult and won't happen). This is the second win condition claimed by members of the group, following Fayul's much more dangerous claim. We'd be crazy to take them at their word given the amount of fudging that's been going on there, and it's much safer to have one of them dead by the morning of day 2.
Even in the scenarios where Kenji could come in handy, any other townie (who has an actual vote) would be better.
In addition, Kenji's death gives us information. Helps clear (not completely, but helps) the rest of the group if he's scum. Narrows down the field a bit if he's not.
The other bit of info we have today (which no-one seems to have looked at yet) is the Puzzle bandwagon. We don't know Puzzle's alignment for sure, but I'm pretty convinced he's not mafia (whatever else he may be). Makes sense at least one mafia would have piggybacked that one and egged it on. Might go consider that one.[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't make sense for the Cowell group to be lying as at least some of them have to be town, and their AWC was pretty much lost at this point.
[QUOTE=339]I don't see where Kenji's seemed innocent, I really don't. He seems to have said anything that will deter us from lynching him today, safe in the knowledge that in this game no ability is too odd to be disbelieved (even if it's an ability which is basically designed so we'll back off lynching him even if we think he's scummy). His posts regarding the Puzzle bandwagon were having it a bit both ways without committing. First Puzzle "intrigued" him, then we got
[Quote=Kenji]
Just to make sure I am not misunderstood, in no way am I saying that I don't think Puzzle is scum (I do not know if he is townie, scum or other at the moment), I am just saying that this lynch on him is foolish.[/quote]
. Puzzle's defence of Kenji has been raised in detail already, but included weird comments on when Kenji should use the lynch, certainty that Kenji could be cleared by day 3 (or that he at least shouldn't be vigged until then), certainty that he couldn't have the same win condition as the rest of the Cowell fans if he was a SK. The Puzzle bandwagon was somewhat about Kenji (my vote certainly, and Azrael voted in response to Puzzle's comments regarding when Kenji should use his ability, can't speak for the rest). Just because Puzzle has a claim that satisfies me he's not MAFIA doesn't mean I automatically ignore odd arguments. There's too much oddity in this discussion, and it's centered on Kenji.
In addition, Kenji's proven drawback (lack of vote) is very untownielike.
The only things I see in his favour are that he has been relatively open about his claim.
On the balance though, I see a kill that:
a) I believe has a strong chance of being a scum of some type
b) Gives us information about the trustworthiness of other people (the Cowell fans definitely, Puzzle possibly) either way
c) Removes all temptation for the townie Cowell fans to mislead the town
d) If wrong, would do less damage than a lynch of any other townie due to Kenji's lack of vote
e) If it's not a bluff and Kenji IS a townie and CAN redirect lynches, he might just get to live even if we try. It's so a bluff, though. I can't believe this is being accepted so easily. I partially blame myself for keeping on talking about vigging him to dodge the chance of him redirecting a lynch, and partially Puzzle for leading the argument that Kenji can't be scum because a scum wouldn't be able to redirect (without ever admitting that the redirect isn't proven, and can't be proven without something rather drastic).
I'm torn here because I don't want to lose track of Verbal either and he I think is actual mafia and not just SK/cult. I'm not usually spoiled for choice of targets on day 1. This Cowell thing has certainly got people talking... well, some people anyhow. And the people in the background are all the more scummy/poor players for staying in the background when there's been so much to talk about.[/QUOTE]Torn between 2 now confirmed townies...
[QUOTE=357]
Fayul- It'd be kind of nice to know what Chamber is thinking, though, as compared to what you're thinking.
Axelrod: The message about "other than kills and investigations" hadn't been put up when I put in my choices (as some people have mentioned, it went up late), so I didn't know about it to forget. It went through anyway, which says more than I'd necessarily want to reveal at this stage.
Azrael: I don't really buy your hypotheticals that Kenji is useful. Unless you're arguing that we have a no-lynch today, SOMEONE will die. You can't just compare a situation with x town and y mafia to x town, y mafia and Kenji, or suggest that if we have townie Kenji instead of a mafia that's a good thing because duh. If you look it at in situations where we have Kenji alive instead of another townie, Kenji's lack of vote loses games any other townie makes winnable. Even in games still winnable, townieKenji's lack of vote would make it harder, we need more townies united to get a majority. If he really has the redirect ability, than yeah, I suppose he can win stuff by lynching a mafia that the town wasn't otherwise going to lynch. It's not exactly something to rely on, althought I guess the ability to overrule the town on occasion would be nice if you back your own judgment.
Obviously if we believe Kenji is a townie we're better off lynching someone else who we think is a scum. I don't believe he's a townie, though. And my point about his lack of vote is that it does us less damage to be wrong about Kenji than we usually would. It is pretty much impossible to prove ANYTHING in this game. Even a claimed inspector may be lying or insane, or the person inspected may be a godfather or a miller. Kenji can't prove he's innocent and I can't prove he's guilty, but on the balance I think he's more likely than not scum and as a bonus I know we're not risking killing off a claimed power role as has been known to happen with some day 1 lynches. It seems very low risk to me for a good chance of reward.
jc: Um, you say Kenji's redirect claim can't be a bluff because the lack of vote makes him weak? What if instead of the redirect ability he's the SK, or a cult leader, or a mafia investigator, or... etc. I'm not saying he's bluffing and has NO ability, I'm saying he's bluffing about what his power ability is. He's claimed an ability which has no point other than deterring a lynch. It's less boring than the standard "I'm the doctor" scum claim, I give him that. To turn your argument around a little bit, he has no vote which is a big drawback if he's a townie so he should have some power ability to make up for it. But his claimed ability is weak on a townie. So he's probably not a townie even if he has that ability. And if he's lying about his ability, he's also not a townie. I'm fine with having Kenji vigged rather than lynched as long as he actually gets vigged. Don't want to give the suspected cult leader/SK many nights to work with.
My vote, so far as I recall, remains on Verbal on that basis of Kenji being vigged. I honestly think we have a good chance here to get a scum day 1 and another type of scum night 1 and get a good start to this game.[/QUOTE]More Kenji attacks...
[QUOTE=410]That's just way too insane and pointless a plan, CropCircles. The 4th fan could have been a townie coming out to say "gotcha!" or a mafia/SK coming out to say "gotcha!" with the idea of looking good by catching a false-claimer as you say. I don't see what it was meant to have achieved.
What's interesting to me is that no-one did come out to jump on it. It's certainly arguable this is a sign of a mafia not wanting to attract attention, also arguable it's the sign of an innocent not wanting to fog things by adding himself to the town's hitlist, also arguable it means the 4th fan is a lurker who wasn't paying attention (or indeed could be chamber, although you'd think another fan wouldn't have any issues with revealing themselves to Fayul, assuming Fayul is telling the truth). Or CropCircles could actually be the 4th fan while trying not to look like the 4th fan, in which case he knew all along that no-one would counterclaim.
That last option makes a lot of sense to me, actually. I'm almost certain a townie 4th fan would have counterclaimed, but at the same time CropCircle's own argument- that a scum 4th fan would have counterclaimed to try and make himself look good by catching out a false claim- is a good one. That no-one counterclaimed is dead suspicious.
Azrael: No. Why? No particular reason why the Cowell group can't be 2 townies, 1 mafia, 1 SK or cult. Even if CropCircles could prove to us that we had a mafia 4th fan out there, it wouldn't clear Kenji. I'm not trying to get him lynched anyway, out of practicality. I'd still like him vigged, though.[/QUOTE]Suspects me of claiming fan so I wouldn't look like the 4th fan. Says Kenji is still not cleared, but ignores the fact that his chances of being scum are reduced.
[QUOTE=424]Not a fan, not fictional[/QUOTE]
Stunning.
[QUOTE=444]Holding for the moment because neither Kofi Annan nor roleblocker are inherently townie, and I want to clarify something. Fayul- does your ability roleblock, or does it only postblock?[/QUOTE]
Asks a perfectly reasonable question.
[QUOTE=461]My point in asking Fayul whether she's a roleblocker or just a postblocker was of course to see how many roleblocker type roles we have. Since we don't seem to have duplication I was inclined to back off a bit, but Verbal's latest defence has restored my faith in the bandwagon.
Acting like confirming his ability proves anything (could easily be a mafia roleblocker), acting like he may have had better false claims (why would you claim false when you can claim your real ability?), acting like the name of Kofi Annan should mean anything in random mafia (leaving aside not knowing what the mod thinks of Annan, why would we have a good-bad split of characters? Where does Britney Spears come into that? My role is also neither inherently good nor evil. Name claims don't prove anything here)
Attempting to trick the town into confirming you by confirming your ability, raising the irrelevant and in any event WIFOM argument of whether you had better false claims, raising an irrelevant argument based on your role name. You did have a couple of valid point, I don't think it's fair to raise arguments that your ability is too simple. It also makes sense that you'd be suspicious of Fayul if you really are a townie roleblocker, since I think a lot of us were unsure as to if Fayul claimed roleblocking.
But since you finished with
[Quote=Verbal]
My claim is pretty easy to prove. Why not lynch someone without these qualities?[/quote]
, I think your attempt to BS the town overrides your legitimate arguments. Yes, your claimed ABILITY is pretty easy to prove, but you've said nothing about proving which side you're on. Too keen to have the town believe you're confirmed when you aren't.
Vote on Verbal stands.[/QUOTE]Reasonable.
[QUOTE=530]
[Quote=Azrael]
Heheh. A good night's work for the town.
The nice thing about resurrecting Verbal would be that we would get another night role, and a confirmed townie (or two) at the same time. But on the other hand, if we can keep CC alive for a little longer, we should be able to use him to revive a dead cop or doc. Right now, I'd say the odds of his survival are pretty good, so I'm inclined to see if we can save his ability a little bit longer.[/quote]
Maybe. Presumably someone got a successful protect last night, but one never knows what the doc's going to do (or what they should do). Verbal back alive sounds like the safe bet. CC- do we get him back alive immediately, or only tonight or tomorrow?
[Quote]
Another point of interest is CP's remark that "someone must have had their suspicions". It would seem that he's either attempting to be a bastard mod, or he's hinting that we had an aggressive vig at work. That would be somewhat unusual though, considering the existence of the two possible "SK" win conditions that Turbo informed us of. Something we'll have to watch for, in the future.[/quote]
OK, I need to reveal something very weird that happened to me in the night because it connects with musashi.
I got an investigation result of innocent on musashi. This was not my doing. I wasn't doing anything in musashi's direction, investigatory or otherwise. The message confirmed that I was the person intended to receive that even though it seemed like it had nothing to do with me.
It's possible that we have an inspector who got suspicious of musashi and who's inspects go to other people (and who was just unfortunate to inspect the godfather). Also possible that the mafia have the ability to send fake info to people. I have no idea.
Quote:
Building off of yesterday, I'm having some increased misgivings about the role RafaelK was playing. He seemed to be jumping from wagon to wagon almost indiscriminately, and repeatedly advocated ideas such as a Kenji lynch or vig-kill. I think neither of those plans would have resulted in any good for the town, and his voting record: vigorously attacking Puzzle, Kenji, and Verbal, is the scummiest we've seen so far.
I take umbrage at the word "indiscriminately", my good sir. I stayed absolutely focussed on Puzzle until he proved himself (and hey, weren't you also strongly on that wagon? You were!). I think there were good reasons for that one. Heck, Verbal- confirmed townie- stayed on it even after most of us thought Puzzle was clear. Then I went for Verbal and stayed on that all the way to the lynch. I did throw a lot of suspicion the way of Kenji during that. I'm still very suspicious of Kenji. Nothing says we can only be suspicious of one scum at a time.
I was definitely wrong on Verbal. The door is still potentially open for something to be wrong on Puzzle, but in any event to call me scummy for the Puzzle wagon would be hypocritical Az. And unless you're possessed of magic information that I don't have that clears Kenji, I don't see why you're so sure that it was scummy to be suspicious of Kenji. I still think Kenji should have been vigged. If I was wrong on Kenji too it doesn't do much damage; if I'm right we remove a threat. Either way we gain information on the fan group, quite possibly getting their real win condition, narrowing down the suspects or helping clear a few people, AND removing the temptation for the townie fans to screw the rest of us over. I don't call that a plan likely to damage the town.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=576]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelK
I take umbrage at the word "indiscriminately", my good sir. I stayed absolutely focussed on Puzzle until he proved himself (and hey, weren't you also strongly on that wagon? You were!). I think there were good reasons for that one. Heck, Verbal- confirmed townie- stayed on it even after most of us thought Puzzle was clear. Then I went for Verbal and stayed on that all the way to the lynch. I did throw a lot of suspicion the way of Kenji during that. I'm still very suspicious of Kenji. Nothing says we can only be suspicious of one scum at a time.
I was on the wagon because of his random-kill suggestion, up until he claimed Night watchman. After that, I immediately came to his defense, whereas many players, including you, continued to push him for additional role information, despite the strong evidence in his favor.
Yeah, see, now you're trying to re-write history. Some would call it "lying".
After Puzzle claimed, I was off the wagon before you were. Which makes sense, seeing as I was the one who confirmed his watcher ability.
What's even MORE interesting is that the person who DID push Puzzle further after he claimed was *Verbal*, and I was the one who came to Puzzle's defence (after all, it's me who confirmed his watcher ability). But apparently now the person who continued to push Puzzle is scum and the person who came to his defense is the noble one...
While there's still that contradiction (a few posts ago, attacking Verbal = scum, suddenly people who continued to press Puzzle- such as Verbal?- = scum), I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were getting me confused with someone else as to my actions. That's way too ham-fisted to be a real attempt at slipping through some revisionist history.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=626]
I'd certainly like to hear why Stevie vigged musashi, at any rate.
Given that Hawkeye's viggings won the game for the town in English Literature mafia so recently, I'm certainly not against reasoned aggressive viggings (still against random night 0 shots though). Well, not while I'm town.
Of course vig is always a nice claim for a SK, especially after they just killed a mafia, but you can't have everything.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=650]This looks supremely odd, but I'm in a rush and don't have time to check whether this vote would be fatal. So FOS Stevie and I'll come back to think about it some more and probably convert to a vote in a few hours.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=657]
Ooh, nice pickup. Mine too. I should have remembered that, since my "from" isn't exactly what I would have expected it to be and I made a note of that when I got my role.
Requiring a vote count from carrion and a REALLY good explanation from stevie at this point.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=670]
Still waiting on Stevie, although there are limits to how long I'll wait (especially if he's logging in but not posting).
Good one Verbal I'd noticed that too but I was holding off on mentioning it to give Stevie the opportunity to hang himself (if he's scum) by claiming to have investigated someone on night 0.
In the absence of that tactic, the no-investigations night 0 seems to me to vaguely support his claimed abilities in that it dodges the issue of whether 0 counts as an "even" night for his investigations. Having his first investigation only after his first mandatory kill would help balance the ability too. Of course, what that still doesn't explain is how he spotted musashi, which is the really weird part of this.
Re: why Turbo over Puzzle? It's quite possible they intended to kill Puzzle and block Turbo. It's also possible they didn't think Puzzle would watch their chosen killer last night so figured to block Turbo's unknown ability, leave Puzzle alone for a night and kill someone else. Heck, we may have a roleblocking doctor. But I don't think there's anything in speculation that Turbo being roleblocked makes Puzzle more suspicious.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=729]Well, that saves me the trouble of bandwagonning Az today. If not for the existence of the Stevie wagon, or if Stevie was cleared, I would have done it yesterday after he tried to use his position as an analyst to blatantly mislead the town. VERY interesting to see he's the 4th fan too. Of course, we only have one fan left now. Bad night for team Cowell.
I was roleblocked last night. Perhaps I had something to do with the uneventful night 2 or maybe someone only thought I did (and if it was you Verbal, I'd really appreciate hearing about this). It was certainly a lot more eventful with me surpressed
It's past 11pm here and I only got home hald an hour ago (stupid job). I'll try to get some actual analysis in tomorrow, we're at an important point of the game and I don't want to just throw some random opinion in.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=763]I was fairly suspicious of silicon on day 1, and I think I said so, but I can't remember why anymore. Something along the lines of egging people on without actually contributing. I'd really have to go do a PBPA at this point to see if it's held up, but I believe that people want the more confirmed posters to do the PBPAs so I'll wait for that.
I'm starting to look at jc a bit more just because he was kind of alongside me on a lot of stuff on which I was wrong. I'm fully aware of the thin ice under that particular line of thought
And I think if we were to throw both MoT and YANP against a wall, we'd probably discover one is silly and one is a silly mafia, but how to tell which one?
I'm VERY interested in the fact that the public soul-taking and the jaws of life have not recurred.
The presence of the cult-leader complicates things. A lot.
Kenji- ok, you were given a message last night you were roleblocked. You wouldn't happen to have got any messages the PREVIOUS night?[/QUOTE]