(no subject)
PUTTING THE FUN IN FUNDAMENTALISM!
Rundown: I got sent an email from mum about an abortion legislation up in front of the Victorian parliament. It was completely wrong and misleading. I sent a reply back up the chain through people that it was sent to back to the original person.
Anyway, I got a reply back and here's the full conversation.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lena's Email <*****@bigpond.net.au>
Date: 2008/9/26
Subject: FW: Abortion - for widest dissemination
Hi all
This is a serious issue we need to address, and prevent happening.
Please may the Lord give us wisdom/
Please pass it to other nurses and pray and take action.
LENA
-------Original Message-------
From: Rosemary *****
Date: 25/09/2008 6:18:25 PM
Subject: FW: Abortion - for widest dissemination
Dear all,
I forward this information onto those of you in NCFA in Vic whom I have your email address. I was sent this by a friend of my husband and I who was concerned, like all of us would be, on how the Bill if passed would affect nurses ie especially those working in maternity areas. He thought that the information in the link would be helpful for us to read and possibly act on. Please pass onto others as applicable to do so.
Blessings Rosemary
Further to our conversation yesterday, please find the URL for Archbishop Hart's pastoral letter on abortion. As you can see, it is not just addressed to Catholics. If implemented, a nurse, doctor or pharmacist would not be allowed to refuse participation in an abortion on the basis of their beliefs. The contact details for the undecided upper House MP's are attached.
http://www.cam.org.au/abortion/pastoral-letter-and-day-of-intercession.html
I'm sending this back to you and the person who sent it to you, as
following the addresses listed on the forward.
People REALLY need to learn to read all the facts and educate
themselves on the matter at hand from both sides before deciding the
spread their own opinion onto others.
If the new legislation is passed, medical staff are ABLE to decline to
be involved in the process of an abortion but must refer onto another
person who may be able to help. This is still complying to patient
choice and ability to seek medical attention and advice without a view
being forced upon them which would be the case if a medical
practitioner were to deny a patient's right to chose to have an
abortion or not by not giving a referral to someone if they will not
(for whatever reason) help in any aspect of abortions.
I would recommend reading the archbishop's letter again, if not the
actual bill, and take note:
# imposes a legal obligation on doctors, nurses, pharmacists and
psychologists who have a conscientious objection to abortion to refer
a woman requesting an abortion to another practitioner in the same
profession whom the practitioner knows does not have a conscientious
objection to abortion; and
# imposes a legal obligation on doctors and nurses, notwithstanding
their conscientious objection, to perform an abortion on a female in
an emergency where it is deemed that the abortion is necessary to
preserve the life of the pregnant woman.
No where does it say they are not allowed to refuse to do an abortion,
full stop.
Educate yourself before attempting to educate others.
Dear KAIKA,
I am a nurse, and as a student nurse have assisted in abortions. It is a life excruciating experience, which till today, whenever I think of abortions, I can see before me decapitation and mutilation, shriveling of an innocent unborn fetus, depending on the method of abortion used. . Sometimes the fetus is left in kidney dishes till the next day, until it is truly dead. This experience affect my senses of mind, hearing, smell, touch, feeling, and sight. The imprint in my mind is indelible, the sound of scraping of the women.s uterus, smell of death, touch of revolt, feeling of sadness, and viewing life and death differently.
I am not talking about abortion of the fetus which has no viability of life, e.g. Babe borne without a brain, or about a mother whose life may be a stake if the pregnancy is carried through. There are truly genuine exceptions. Maybe if couples are responsible in communicating their love for each other, surely there is morality, integrity, accountability, and responsibility in their actions, without involving an innocent,unwanted pregnancy. I always believe in the dignity of a person with higher control of the brain centre, of the desires, and of control of themselves. There are healthy ways of living and communicating without having sex on encounters, or unplanned pregnancies which involve terminating lives of precious unborn, I do take examples from first hand experience, of holding a premature baby who died soon after delivery. It is an experience that cannot be deleted from my mind, the frail, limp body, the helpless baby, the transparent veins on the body.and hands and feet.
Please address the basics, morality issues, bring the fear of a Creator, and Father God back to Parliament, to Schools, to Law, and Police, to Local, State and National Level,. We will then have a clear conscience, peace and prosperity in Australia,
Yours Truly,
LENA LIM
Lena,
Being a training science professional in the field of biological
sciences, dealing with genetics, microbiology as well as human
physiology, I am well aware of the bioethics involved in the matter of
abortion as well as other procedures that may be found controversial.
True, I am not about to become a nurse or a doctor, nor do I have an
intention to, someone in my family has been a nurse for around 30 or
more years now, but looking at this from a critical thinking point of
view on the matter, I recognize your point of that you may find it
traumatic but it is besides the point of the forward first sent which
was misguiding.
If you are outright against abortions in any circumstance and
situation, you are welcome to that opinion and I have no beef with
that. The problem I have is misinformation being spread.
I stand by a person's right to choice to go through an abortion and I
stand by a person's right to decline to be involved in the procedure
of an abortion but the medical field still have the responsibility of
care as well as respecting the patient's wishes. As a person such as
yourself who refuses to be involved, I doubt it would not be beyond
your current institution to introduce a system of recognizing staff
who are conscientiously against such a procedure, as an example. I am
not an administrator nor do I intend to take the role of one for a
minute, but this is an example of how you could safeguard yourself as
well as the system safeguarding you.
To bring this full circle, and back to the original point in hand, my
problem is NOT the stance on the matter of pro-abortion or pro-life.
My problem is how people want to mutate information to suit their own
needs by saying that people "would not be allowed to refuse
participation in an abortion on the basis of their beliefs", which is
to the contrary of the legislation which is the crux of the issue.
Regards,
Kalika
Dear KAIKA,
Thanks for your quick response. I have not been involved in assisting in any abortions, since my student days, and do not wish to be involved.
I have offered my colleague an invaluable advice, once when confided that she was going for and abortion. I told her to give herself a chance, and the unborn a chance. She did not go for the abortion. She thanked me, and told me she was happily married, and had a lovely baby girl.
Yours truly,
LENA LIM
Lena,
You've once again sidestepped the point. I will iterate it once again,
the stance an individual and reasons why that may be does not bother
me at all, if anything I'm apathetic to it. My problem is intentional
misinformation to sway minds.
Might I ask you to also look at my name. Kalika has an L, you've been
missing the L in my name.
Kalika
The emails are cut to there because in her next email, she asks who exactly I am and how I got her email, so hence introductions are in place, and since this is the internet, fucked if I'm putting myself out there.
Kalika
EDIT: Got more! Funny shit.
Hi Emma,
You are in real trouble, because you are deceitful, uninformed, and think you know it all. You are too big for you boots. You will cause grief to yourself, as well as to your mother, who is so genuine in her relationship and in her love for God. I suggest you go to you heavenly Father for forgiveness, and pray that God can change you and give you humility..You are still young and you can be moulded into being like Christ, and not become fixed and rigid, by the world.
You are very intelligent, but you use your fine mind, for advocating the devil's purpose and defeating all your mother's aspirations for you to become Godly and used for God.s purposes.
Your mum was so proud when she gave birth to you, and willingly ran all the errands for you that she neglected her spiritual life for you. She has found the abundance of living, taking disappointments at a stride, and you as a daughter, has probably, no inclination or desire, to understand her and her sacrifice. She could have a daughter who loves God and love her, and be side by side with her in this journey of life. Emma, please don't waste your time and my time with this dialogue.
LENA LIM
My response: I laugh. I find this particular response quite entertaining.
Only because you assume you can pass judgment on me when you would
just assume otherwise. And if I'm not wrong, ONLY God can judge me at
the end of days, correct?
My opinion is mine and mine only and what I do with my life is what is
meant to happen according to God, since (apparently) it's all be laid
down before I was born. So, let me put it clean and simple to you:
If God, Allah, The Goddess, A HIGHER ENTITY has a set plan for my life
to process, then this would be in their plans if I believe right now
or not. I don't believe anything right now, so it is not my time to
believe yet.
Do not believe you can guilt trip me nor make me believe that because
I don't believe the same way you do that I'm the Devil's fodder.
Remember, if you pass judgment on someone else, you will get the
result three-fold unto you.
2nd EDIT: I gave it a bit more thought in the shower and this is what I came up with.
I had to think about it but did I actually attack her personally? I don't think so, I questioned a statement and it's validity, but eventually I was personally attacked. The email I omitted contained personal information about myself, which would prove that I'm not actually that old yet I'm still an adult, but the minute she figured that I wasn't to her 'caliber' I was shot down.
Another thing I was thinking is, though she has had first-hand experience with abortions and such, from what I'm told by mum, she's never been married, and she's a spinster. Well, given she's never been married, I'm assuming being the decent Christian she is, she's probably never had sex. Without sex you can't imagine pregnancy nor entertained the thought of contemplating an abortion seriously.
Being a young adult myself, I'm thinking, in a way I educate myself on options available out there in the world IF I want to become sexually active or not, keeping in mind, a person does NOT have to be sexually active at my age, and can be sexually active WITHIN a marriage. It makes me think for example the Catholic church is against the use of condoms, but say a married couple have intercourse and the woman falls pregnant, what are their options if they don't wish to have the child?
I really don't want to sound overly haughty-taughty but in a way, don't I have more of a right to say and know something because it is applicable to me? What happens if a girl gets raped and falls pregnant and doesn't want a child despite not having any defects?
Also, I don't understand the misconception of that people (mostly stereotyped young people) go out every friday and saturday night, drink till they're stupid and go fuck their brains out. And that due to that, they always need to have 'social' abortions. I know *some* people who do that, and sleep around, but 99% of my friends don't. I certainly don't have that mentality nor want to sleep around. I'm happy the way I am, with or without sex and I don't understand the stigma associated with it.
The bill basically is just about taking abortion off the criminal act, which in itself is fine. Abortions have been going on since... pretty much stone-age times, I assume, with case studies I have read of certain tribes that would massage the stomach of a pregnant woman to induce early labour, hence aborting the pregnancy.
With the Catholic, er, faction? (I guess I'll call it that, their neither a majority nor minority) kicking up such a big stink about it saying their hospitals would shut down (I'm probably quoting this wrong but without looking, I think around 12-15% of the health system in Victoria is Catholic), is in my eyes of a child kicking up a tantrum because they don't want something or can't get something they want. I'm certainly sure Catholic hospitals won't collapse as a direct consequence, unless they do it willfully, and they are free to decline to proceed with the procedure of an abortion but my point is that they have DUTY OF CARE to a patient as well as a responsibility to respect patient choice and rights if a person does want to go ahead with an abortion, by referring them on to a health care professional who does not have a conscientious objection and is fully certified to do such a procedure. Anything less than that would be a perversion of such a basic right of choice.
For the record, I've never had an abortion and never been pregnant. I certainly don't plan or want to be either.
Rundown: I got sent an email from mum about an abortion legislation up in front of the Victorian parliament. It was completely wrong and misleading. I sent a reply back up the chain through people that it was sent to back to the original person.
Anyway, I got a reply back and here's the full conversation.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lena's Email <*****@bigpond.net.au>
Date: 2008/9/26
Subject: FW: Abortion - for widest dissemination
Hi all
This is a serious issue we need to address, and prevent happening.
Please may the Lord give us wisdom/
Please pass it to other nurses and pray and take action.
LENA
-------Original Message-------
From: Rosemary *****
Date: 25/09/2008 6:18:25 PM
Subject: FW: Abortion - for widest dissemination
Dear all,
I forward this information onto those of you in NCFA in Vic whom I have your email address. I was sent this by a friend of my husband and I who was concerned, like all of us would be, on how the Bill if passed would affect nurses ie especially those working in maternity areas. He thought that the information in the link would be helpful for us to read and possibly act on. Please pass onto others as applicable to do so.
Blessings Rosemary
Further to our conversation yesterday, please find the URL for Archbishop Hart's pastoral letter on abortion. As you can see, it is not just addressed to Catholics. If implemented, a nurse, doctor or pharmacist would not be allowed to refuse participation in an abortion on the basis of their beliefs. The contact details for the undecided upper House MP's are attached.
http://www.cam.org.au/abortion/pastoral-letter-and-day-of-intercession.html
I'm sending this back to you and the person who sent it to you, as
following the addresses listed on the forward.
People REALLY need to learn to read all the facts and educate
themselves on the matter at hand from both sides before deciding the
spread their own opinion onto others.
If the new legislation is passed, medical staff are ABLE to decline to
be involved in the process of an abortion but must refer onto another
person who may be able to help. This is still complying to patient
choice and ability to seek medical attention and advice without a view
being forced upon them which would be the case if a medical
practitioner were to deny a patient's right to chose to have an
abortion or not by not giving a referral to someone if they will not
(for whatever reason) help in any aspect of abortions.
I would recommend reading the archbishop's letter again, if not the
actual bill, and take note:
# imposes a legal obligation on doctors, nurses, pharmacists and
psychologists who have a conscientious objection to abortion to refer
a woman requesting an abortion to another practitioner in the same
profession whom the practitioner knows does not have a conscientious
objection to abortion; and
# imposes a legal obligation on doctors and nurses, notwithstanding
their conscientious objection, to perform an abortion on a female in
an emergency where it is deemed that the abortion is necessary to
preserve the life of the pregnant woman.
No where does it say they are not allowed to refuse to do an abortion,
full stop.
Educate yourself before attempting to educate others.
Dear KAIKA,
I am a nurse, and as a student nurse have assisted in abortions. It is a life excruciating experience, which till today, whenever I think of abortions, I can see before me decapitation and mutilation, shriveling of an innocent unborn fetus, depending on the method of abortion used. . Sometimes the fetus is left in kidney dishes till the next day, until it is truly dead. This experience affect my senses of mind, hearing, smell, touch, feeling, and sight. The imprint in my mind is indelible, the sound of scraping of the women.s uterus, smell of death, touch of revolt, feeling of sadness, and viewing life and death differently.
I am not talking about abortion of the fetus which has no viability of life, e.g. Babe borne without a brain, or about a mother whose life may be a stake if the pregnancy is carried through. There are truly genuine exceptions. Maybe if couples are responsible in communicating their love for each other, surely there is morality, integrity, accountability, and responsibility in their actions, without involving an innocent,unwanted pregnancy. I always believe in the dignity of a person with higher control of the brain centre, of the desires, and of control of themselves. There are healthy ways of living and communicating without having sex on encounters, or unplanned pregnancies which involve terminating lives of precious unborn, I do take examples from first hand experience, of holding a premature baby who died soon after delivery. It is an experience that cannot be deleted from my mind, the frail, limp body, the helpless baby, the transparent veins on the body.and hands and feet.
Please address the basics, morality issues, bring the fear of a Creator, and Father God back to Parliament, to Schools, to Law, and Police, to Local, State and National Level,. We will then have a clear conscience, peace and prosperity in Australia,
Yours Truly,
LENA LIM
Lena,
Being a training science professional in the field of biological
sciences, dealing with genetics, microbiology as well as human
physiology, I am well aware of the bioethics involved in the matter of
abortion as well as other procedures that may be found controversial.
True, I am not about to become a nurse or a doctor, nor do I have an
intention to, someone in my family has been a nurse for around 30 or
more years now, but looking at this from a critical thinking point of
view on the matter, I recognize your point of that you may find it
traumatic but it is besides the point of the forward first sent which
was misguiding.
If you are outright against abortions in any circumstance and
situation, you are welcome to that opinion and I have no beef with
that. The problem I have is misinformation being spread.
I stand by a person's right to choice to go through an abortion and I
stand by a person's right to decline to be involved in the procedure
of an abortion but the medical field still have the responsibility of
care as well as respecting the patient's wishes. As a person such as
yourself who refuses to be involved, I doubt it would not be beyond
your current institution to introduce a system of recognizing staff
who are conscientiously against such a procedure, as an example. I am
not an administrator nor do I intend to take the role of one for a
minute, but this is an example of how you could safeguard yourself as
well as the system safeguarding you.
To bring this full circle, and back to the original point in hand, my
problem is NOT the stance on the matter of pro-abortion or pro-life.
My problem is how people want to mutate information to suit their own
needs by saying that people "would not be allowed to refuse
participation in an abortion on the basis of their beliefs", which is
to the contrary of the legislation which is the crux of the issue.
Regards,
Kalika
Dear KAIKA,
Thanks for your quick response. I have not been involved in assisting in any abortions, since my student days, and do not wish to be involved.
I have offered my colleague an invaluable advice, once when confided that she was going for and abortion. I told her to give herself a chance, and the unborn a chance. She did not go for the abortion. She thanked me, and told me she was happily married, and had a lovely baby girl.
Yours truly,
LENA LIM
Lena,
You've once again sidestepped the point. I will iterate it once again,
the stance an individual and reasons why that may be does not bother
me at all, if anything I'm apathetic to it. My problem is intentional
misinformation to sway minds.
Might I ask you to also look at my name. Kalika has an L, you've been
missing the L in my name.
Kalika
The emails are cut to there because in her next email, she asks who exactly I am and how I got her email, so hence introductions are in place, and since this is the internet, fucked if I'm putting myself out there.
Kalika
EDIT: Got more! Funny shit.
Hi Emma,
You are in real trouble, because you are deceitful, uninformed, and think you know it all. You are too big for you boots. You will cause grief to yourself, as well as to your mother, who is so genuine in her relationship and in her love for God. I suggest you go to you heavenly Father for forgiveness, and pray that God can change you and give you humility..You are still young and you can be moulded into being like Christ, and not become fixed and rigid, by the world.
You are very intelligent, but you use your fine mind, for advocating the devil's purpose and defeating all your mother's aspirations for you to become Godly and used for God.s purposes.
Your mum was so proud when she gave birth to you, and willingly ran all the errands for you that she neglected her spiritual life for you. She has found the abundance of living, taking disappointments at a stride, and you as a daughter, has probably, no inclination or desire, to understand her and her sacrifice. She could have a daughter who loves God and love her, and be side by side with her in this journey of life. Emma, please don't waste your time and my time with this dialogue.
LENA LIM
My response: I laugh. I find this particular response quite entertaining.
Only because you assume you can pass judgment on me when you would
just assume otherwise. And if I'm not wrong, ONLY God can judge me at
the end of days, correct?
My opinion is mine and mine only and what I do with my life is what is
meant to happen according to God, since (apparently) it's all be laid
down before I was born. So, let me put it clean and simple to you:
If God, Allah, The Goddess, A HIGHER ENTITY has a set plan for my life
to process, then this would be in their plans if I believe right now
or not. I don't believe anything right now, so it is not my time to
believe yet.
Do not believe you can guilt trip me nor make me believe that because
I don't believe the same way you do that I'm the Devil's fodder.
Remember, if you pass judgment on someone else, you will get the
result three-fold unto you.
2nd EDIT: I gave it a bit more thought in the shower and this is what I came up with.
I had to think about it but did I actually attack her personally? I don't think so, I questioned a statement and it's validity, but eventually I was personally attacked. The email I omitted contained personal information about myself, which would prove that I'm not actually that old yet I'm still an adult, but the minute she figured that I wasn't to her 'caliber' I was shot down.
Another thing I was thinking is, though she has had first-hand experience with abortions and such, from what I'm told by mum, she's never been married, and she's a spinster. Well, given she's never been married, I'm assuming being the decent Christian she is, she's probably never had sex. Without sex you can't imagine pregnancy nor entertained the thought of contemplating an abortion seriously.
Being a young adult myself, I'm thinking, in a way I educate myself on options available out there in the world IF I want to become sexually active or not, keeping in mind, a person does NOT have to be sexually active at my age, and can be sexually active WITHIN a marriage. It makes me think for example the Catholic church is against the use of condoms, but say a married couple have intercourse and the woman falls pregnant, what are their options if they don't wish to have the child?
I really don't want to sound overly haughty-taughty but in a way, don't I have more of a right to say and know something because it is applicable to me? What happens if a girl gets raped and falls pregnant and doesn't want a child despite not having any defects?
Also, I don't understand the misconception of that people (mostly stereotyped young people) go out every friday and saturday night, drink till they're stupid and go fuck their brains out. And that due to that, they always need to have 'social' abortions. I know *some* people who do that, and sleep around, but 99% of my friends don't. I certainly don't have that mentality nor want to sleep around. I'm happy the way I am, with or without sex and I don't understand the stigma associated with it.
The bill basically is just about taking abortion off the criminal act, which in itself is fine. Abortions have been going on since... pretty much stone-age times, I assume, with case studies I have read of certain tribes that would massage the stomach of a pregnant woman to induce early labour, hence aborting the pregnancy.
With the Catholic, er, faction? (I guess I'll call it that, their neither a majority nor minority) kicking up such a big stink about it saying their hospitals would shut down (I'm probably quoting this wrong but without looking, I think around 12-15% of the health system in Victoria is Catholic), is in my eyes of a child kicking up a tantrum because they don't want something or can't get something they want. I'm certainly sure Catholic hospitals won't collapse as a direct consequence, unless they do it willfully, and they are free to decline to proceed with the procedure of an abortion but my point is that they have DUTY OF CARE to a patient as well as a responsibility to respect patient choice and rights if a person does want to go ahead with an abortion, by referring them on to a health care professional who does not have a conscientious objection and is fully certified to do such a procedure. Anything less than that would be a perversion of such a basic right of choice.
For the record, I've never had an abortion and never been pregnant. I certainly don't plan or want to be either.