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[the__lord]

For the first time, I'm casting the decisive vote, which means I should expect plenty of argument. Anyway, here goes:

Let me start by saying that this debate surpassed even the last one, and both participants did very well.

It seemed to me, that killtacular was arguing that the benefits of stem cell research outweighed the ethical questions involved. His

Comments

[killtacular]

the distinction is a philosophical one that I didn't actually elaborate a whole lot. But I still hold the point that you cannot consider multiple feti to all be potential humans when you create a (probable) surplus in relation to what is actually going to be implanted. If you have a surplus that is never going to be implanted, it has as much potential to turn into a human being as does an embryo created specifically to be harvested. In any case, I never saw the point made that it was all right to create (allegedly potential) human beings and destroy them because they were no longer necessary for reproduction but that it was not all right to create embryos (potential human beings or not) and destroy them for life-saving medical treatments, which is what would have to be made. Agree with somnambulisa all you want, she never answered this, which in a less-direct manner was what I brought up in my conclusion.

Which isn't to say I necessarily thought I won or anything, just that I definitely don't think I lost on that.

[the__lord]

Say you have a bucket with five in vitro embryos, waiting for implantation. Point to the one that isn't a potential embryo. You clearly can't, as each of them currently is a potential child. Once one is successfully implanted, the remaining embryos cease to be potential humans, unless of course, the intent is to implant elsewhere. somnambulisa was correct in stating that at the time of creation, each embryo is a potential human.

Nah, you didn't lose on that, but it drove me nuts. :P

[killtacular]

I don't know, I'd say there was one potential human in there, and four non-potential humans, but that which one was the potential human hadn't been decided yet. I still don't see how this is less plausible

[the__lord]

I don't know, any one of them could turn out to be a human, but I don't think that makes them potential humans until that potential is actually established, which happens upon implantation.

Ignoring the irrelevant that was the rest of your comment, I'll skip right to the point. That last sentence highlights your confusion on the issue. If any of them can turn out to be a human, that is precisely what defines them as potential humans. At that point at time, each and every one of them is a potential human. Every one of them has the potential to become a human. Now let's reverse to the time of creation, or conception, or whatever you want to call it. Again, each of them is a potential human. Only when one is successfully implanted, and the others are condemned to termination, do those others cease to be potential humans. Don't make me use the head smashing against the wall icon.