Continuation of discussion

[delmarsdoll]

This post grew from a reply I left to Spooky FBI. I felt I wanted to make it a post because it expands on the discussion I started and gets a little closer to the discussion I meant to start long ago

Comments

[twinsarein]

It has been a long time since I read these books - the mid 80's is when I got interested in ST TOS. I was a teenager back then, had never heard of slash, was barely aware of homosexuality. I saw nothing but friendship between K&S, it never occurred to me that there could be anything more between them.

The reason I tell you all of that, is because reading the Phoenix books made me uncomfortable back then (in a squirmy kind of way, not a disapproving one). I didn't understand it at the time, but when a friend recently asked for books to try in ST TOS that had slashy undertones, the Phoenix books were the first to come to mind (I well remember those Vulcan self-defense lessons Spock gave to Kirk).

Are those books slashy? If a slash null like me could pick up on it, then the answer is, Hell YES!

[delmarsdoll]

I wouldn't call myself slash null; I tend to think I am making stuff up. When I read the Phoenix books and the other stories edited by that pair, I was like "I can't be making that sh*t up!" So, when I heard that maybe they intended it as nothing more than a close brotherhood, I was like, huh?

[spookyfbi]

Even IF I was to believe that the writer didn't intend slash for K&S (and that's a big IF), there's no way in hell they didn't intend it for Omne.

Omne's face was the face of the wolf, the beast--the face of jungle and night "Now beg for yourself. I am alpha here, and you will--now--yield."

One big hand twisted his head down and forward and the other ran down the back of his neck, feeling it cord and crackle with the resistance.

"Yield," the low voice snarled. "Let it happen."

Very suddenly Kirk released every muscle, letting the power of the big hands smash his forehead down into the target his knee had missed.

I mean... Omne wants oral sex here, right? I'm not the only one who felt like this book came dangerously close to having a rape scene, am I?

[spookyfbi]

Kirk had no illusions. The giant would regain sight and speed and precision in a moment. Kirk could not beat him. And the uncanny strength, the vicious imagination, could cause the Human body pain beyond its capacity to endure.

And the soul, also. Humiliation. A sickness of soul which could be felt through the body.

At some point he would beg abjectly, and for himself.

No illusions. Tough universe. It could be done to a man, any man. He had always known that it could be done to him. He had been very lucky.

And here his luck ran out

I mean... seriously?

[delmarsdoll]

I'm with you, seriously? I wish I had the book with me so I could join in a quote discussion with you. There were several points in this book where I had to close it and go, "did I just read that?" Again, I feel like if they intended it as just a close brotherhood then they had no real connection to reality and what seperates brotherhood from lovers.

[spookyfbi]

Or how about this:

Omne put his hands on his hips, resting them on the low gunbelt. "Now, my replica. I do not know how well the Commander knew your predecessor, although Captain Kirk was legend for being well known on short acquaintance. However, Commander Spock has certainly shared ship and shore leave for many years. Hardships, injuries, dangers, gym workouts. He must know the Captain very well. Every contour. Every scar. Every injury. There is a half-healed one on your leg. You will therefore stand up and display that identity and perfection."

I mean, I don't care how many gym workouts I've shared with my bffs, I do not know their every contour, scar or injury. I'm an only child, but I assume the same would go for siblings as well.

[doyle_sb4]

*here via the newsletter*

they (Culbreath and Marshak) were acknowledging Kirk and Spock's relationship as that of a deep bond like a brotherhood but not as lovers.

You know, this could just be me but - speaking of my own experience of having a brother? Were I to sit down to write a deep, brotherly bond between two characters, I would not envisage a plot that required them to dress as cowboys, then get naked and massage one another's thighs with 'healing foam'. In fact, that's something I would specifically avoid...

That said, there were plenty of fic writers even as late as the 90s churning out smarm - gen with heavy hurt/comfort where the central couple might hug or hold hands or cuddle in bed - but pitching a fit if anyone read anything slashy into the stories so it's quite possible Marshak and Culbreath had no idea of their own subtext.

[aqueousserenade]

Haha I also have a brother. Healing foam would not make it into any brotherly story I wrote either.

[delmarsdoll]

Would wishing to run away together so that you could be together always make it into a story? I thought not...

[delmarsdoll]

As I told another poster, I wasn't aware of smarm until I came into this fandom. All the other fandoms, it's slash or it isn't, ya' know. But the heavy hurt/comfort with hand holding and cuddling doesn't sound completely believable. I have a friend of 22 years; we call each other sister; we sometimes sleep in the same bed, but we never cuddle. I'm not saying it's not possible; it just feels unrealistic. Sometimes I wonder if they (Culbreath and Marshak) felt they needed to cover their a**es cuz they were afraid to say their true feelings on the matter. I mean, this was before Roddenberry came out with T'hy'la. Maybe they thought they would be booted out of the Star Trek world if they said they intended to present K/S as lovers. Who knows...

[klangley56]

You know, it may have been Jacqueline Lichtenberg who gave me the impression (or even said somewhere directly) that Marshak and Culbreath weren't K/Sers.

Or maybe not. The old gray matter she ain't what she used to be. :-) But she would be a good person to ask, since she and Marshak are buds.

And it's really not unheard of for non-slash writers to present material that skirts the slash edge . . . that's a large part of what the "smarm" genre is, in my opinion. :-)

Either way, I'm not trying to seriously convince slash-oriented fans (I'm both) that something isn't slash if they think it is, because that's a lost cause. :-)

[delmarsdoll]

I get that some material may be intended as not slash but it gets really close to the line. I actually wasn't aware of the genre of smarm until this fandom and I encountered people not into K/S. But there are some things they (Culbreath and Marshak) write or edit that just, cross the line in my opinion. The bit in Winged Dreamers where Spock talks openly to Kirk about running away together to be together always: I really don't buy that as just a close bond of brotherhood. I am the last person, however, to try to tell people what they intended with their writing. I always failed the "analyze this" assignments in school lit classes. But I would say to these writers that their perception of a deep but not sexual bond are not believable.
And I don't kow how old your gray matter is, but mine already isn't what it used to be at 35+, so you have my complete sympathy. Why do we have to get older?!!!

[klangley56]

Oh, great--I've been in fandom longer than you've been alive. Now I *really* feel old. :-)

[delmarsdoll]

Sorry, that was NOT my intention.

[klangley56]

Ain't it purty? That's a piece of artwork called "A Beach to . . . Walk On" and it's drawn by my friend Jean Kluge. She has it available as an art print too.

The one on this post is from a piece of artwork by my friend Suzan Lovett, drawn for a zine cover but also available as a print (and a t-shirt).