DIR EN GREY Guitar Book feat. 薫 & Die Guitar History Interview Pt. 1
DIR EN GREY Guitar Book
feat. 薫 & Die
Guitar History Interview Pt. 1
Because we were different types,
We were actually able to act freely.
―The two you began your guitar combination from a band before DIR EN GREY right? Before that time, did you guys have an experience of being in a band with twin guitars?
Kaoru: I was always in a band with twin guitars. To say further, I only wanted to be in a band with twin guitars. Visually speaking, it looks cool having guitarists on both sides, and sound-wise, I liked to harmonize with 2 guitars. One could play heavy riffs while the other could play a phrase. I liked that kind of sounding.
Die: I was in a band with one guitar part. But even then, the previous band to DIR EN GREY asked me to join, telling me if I could play lead guitar (laugh).
―Wait, you were a type of guitarist that always played solo?
Die: No (laugh). I was like, I’m not a lead guitarist. As I was thinking this way, I joined and experienced twin guitars for the first time. But, I’m not sure if that counts in my experience.
―When you first joined, how did you interact to think about arrangements with the other guitarist?
Die: He just had the flunger (?) on and produced noise with a “gya―” sound (laugh). So I had to play properly. Well, I don’t think it was even proper (laugh).
Kaoru: Didn’t the first line-up only last for one or two months?
Die: That’s because on the second show, Kaoru-kun came to see us (laugh) because our guitarist was going to quit. Kaoru-kun was going to newly join.
― Did the two of you know each other?
Kaoru: When both of us were in different bands to this one (note: La Sadies), we did a live together once.
Die: At that time, both of us were on the kamite (note: right side of stage from the audience’s view) side of the stage, so after the show, we talked when we were cleaning up our equipments. We talked about which live house we used.
―Seeing each other’s show, what kind of impression did you get as guitarists?
Die: Well, during that show, we were preparing for our stage, so we couldn’t see each other’s show. But that was the first time we met. The next time we talked was when Kaoru-kun was going to join the previous band or not. It was the second show I mentioned about.
Kaoru: That time was just when my band was about to disband, and before the disbanding, I got a call from Die-kun and other band members. All of the sudden, they asked, “Please join” (laugh). I had no real introduction with the band members, and I thought, “Wait a minute.” They were already a flamboyant band. There were many ads in various live houses, the band’s appearance was fierce, and I thought they were pretty out there (laugh). I also liked fierce stuff since I was young too. But the band I was in was pop (music) where the back performed dark metal kind of stuff (laugh). The 2 guitarists and bassist liked metal whereas the drummer and vocalist liked really pop music. This band had a strange formation. While I was in this band, I reaffirmed that I wanted to do heavier stuff, and just when I was thinking this, I got a phone call. Plus, after the disbanding, they (La Sadies) had a show the next day, so I just decided to go see them, but they only had one song (laugh). During the show, they did that song over and over (laugh).
Die: …Oh yeah, that’s right (laugh).
Kaoru: On top of that, the sound was all smashed and Kyo kept screaming “wa―”. What the hell is this band (laugh)? But the crowd was pretty in to them, and I felt even more like “What the hell?” (laugh) However, not the song being this and that, the stage and style was in the direction I wanted to do. It’s heavy. But the song was incomprehensible. After the show, they called me backstage and asked me, “How was it? Join our band.” But, I told them I needed to think about it. I continued to watch another band’s show afterwards and thought that this may be destiny of how I was asked right after my band disbanded. I decided for once that I’d jump in. So I went back to the backstage and replied that I would join. And there, I was introduced to the other members for the first time (laugh). I’ve only spoken to the leader back then.
Die: Did you think everyone would welcome you?
Kaoru: Right, right (laugh). He (note: the leader back then. I guess that’s Kisaki) introduced me to them, “This is the new guitarist that’ll join us,” but the members were all like, “…okay” (laugh). At this place, I wanted to check what kind of work and what kind of guitar I should play, and they replied back with, “Whatever you like” or “sort of” (laugh). What the hell? They were really suspicious (laugh). Then, I told them that we go into a studio. And just as I thought, they only had that one song they performed at the show (laugh). I heard that they practiced that song the entire night before the show, so I asked, “You guys practiced this song the entire night?” And they said yes (laugh). I ask them again, “Wow, don’t you guys get tired of it?” And they said that this is the only song they have (laugh). Then, I told them we should make more songs, arrange them, and make them sound cooler.
Die: We seriously only had one song (laugh). The leader at the time was like, “We wear flashy costumes, play one song, and leave;” where he aimed for impact. When I joined, during the first month, I only had to practice that one song and I actually thought, “I can’t take this~” (laugh).
―In the end, your activity period ended in a year then?
Kaoru: To avoid misunderstanding, we didn’t only do that song for a year (laugh). After I joined, I told them that we should make songs. We also had tour schedule crammed in, so one song would not be enough, and we made songs and demo tapes.
―What kind of method did you use to make songs?
Kaoru: We used the method of members giving ideas and checking the sounds as we arranged them.
―Between the two of you, did you guys have a discussion about your favorite approach and phrase?
Die: Rather than that, our guitar type and amp were different, so it was easy to work together.
Kaoru: Die-kun used a single coil Roland JC and I had a Humbacker Highwatt.
Die: So Kaoru-kun did distortions while I would do the clean ones. Our sounds were completely separated. Even during the demo recording at the time, we would proceed by directing each other what to do.
Kaoru: Back then, I liked heavy riffs and Die-kun would be above where he played solo part kind of a phrase. And cutting too. So from that time, there was the scent of DIR EN GREY’s first phase already.
―Kaoru-kun, even though you had the experience of twin-guitar, was it your first time to team up with a completely different type of guitarist?
Kaoru: Yes. The previous band was with a bunch of people who lived in my neighborhood, and we knew what each of us wanted to do. But, when you jump into someone else’s band, you don’t know the backbone and what kind of guitar you’re supposed to play at first. That’s why I was able to play freely; because we were different types. What Die-kun did freely inspired me so much. The band before this only did harmonizing (laugh). Even if I didn’t want to play like that, the guitar parts had to harmonize.
Die: But we didn’t have any unison, and although we were twin guitars, it was perfectly independent of each other.
Some kind of a twisted world; we were thinking like that as we made up phrases.
―Having that experience, it links back to Dir en grey’s formation, but Dir en grey is not an extension of the previous band where it began as a new band right? Did you have a strong desire to create a new style in your guitar combination?
Kaoru: At the time, we didn’t have the time to think that way. We were making songs for lives, but from Dir en grey, we were asked to record right away. They told us to make songs. We made about 2 songs in a demo tape and went into boot camp to make the mini-album Missa. We slept in the studio, woke up and made songs, and sleep there again.
Die: That was a poverty boot camp (laugh). But the way we make our guitar arrangement is close to what we do today. “If you play it this way, then I’ll play this phrase.” It was this repetition that gradually shaped the arrangement.
Kaoru: We would share our vision of the songs as we made them. But rather than the feeling of making guitar arrangement with two people, we had a stronger sense of playing different parts.
―When it comes to the first work, Gauze, the guitar arrangement is very worked out. You guys also had a lot of guitar solos in there. At the time, were you guys aiming a certain way?
Kaoru: We wanted the work full of variation. We were thinking of not putting similar songs. Since it was a debut album, we wanted it to be the culmination, and we wanted to be closer to the debut album we envisioned. The guitar arrangement is very worked out, but until the recording, we were really distressed over it.
―If you listen to this now, each sound is clearly recorded, and the point here is how you are going to entangle them.
Kaoru: I think so too.
Die: But when I think back to Gauze’s recording, it would be the recording in LA. All of the sudden, we went to LA recording for our debut single, and in the studio, there were so many equipments.
Kaoru: Now that you remember it, it was a sit on a gold mine. If we had the know-how back then, we would have been able to use the equipment more efficiently. At the time, we really didn’t know too much about equipments.
Die: This was the time when Pro Tools appeared, and we didn’t really know what that was except the fact that we could copy and paste what we played once. I think we used that method a lot. Now, I would regret it, or we used a bad method. It would’ve been better if we copied and pasted it, and then change the texture from everything else, but we just pasted the same phrases. It was the engineer’s idea, but we also thought that to be easier (bitter laugh).
―Due to technology advancing, this time period became how people could elaborately create works in the studio.
Die: Right. There are many useful equipments and electronics, but it’s not a good idea to use them with negligence. Afterwards, I really thought it would have been better if we just played everything through first.
―Also, did you feel a real need for guitar solos?
Kaoru: In the song’s development, we made the songs considering guitar solos. There would be songs where we would think, “Maybe we don’t need a solo for this song?” But we were very conscious of making the guitars heard.
Die: We had more measures in the solo, and within the solo, there would be an introduction, development, turn, conclusion type of an expansion. But we were really up to our heads. It was a battle with our skills too. Still, we had this sense of “we made it” or “it’s done” feeling.
―I also think that the twin guitar approach that used to separate into distortion and clean changed into a style where you would include crossing points.
Kaoru: I play something of a crunch, and Die-kun also started playing riffs. Both of us became closer or we began mixing in this album. This was not a result from talking things over, but it changed through our aesthesia.
Die: Even if we were to play a clean arpeggio, with me and Kaoru-kun, our sounds would differ. It was all right to have both ways.
―Even if you were to play the same backing, I could see glimpses of your ideas and perspective differing.
Kaoru: Even if our riff’s beginning would be the same, our approaches would be slightly different. If one of us would do riff-like chops, the other would play on a power chord where neither of us would play a sound from the same position.
―That really shows in your second work, Macabre.
Die: Having the knowledge we gained from Gauze, we created a world-view full of guitar arrangement. We were very conscientious about it, and I even thought that we made something really great.
Kaoru: This was the first time we made an album that we envisioned to be a Dir en grey album. We worked really hard, and it was very difficult too.
―How did your arrangement process go?
Kaoru: We first did preproduction that included guitar arrangement, and we made the manipulator we had at the time judge the sound’s collision. Afterwards, we did what we liked, and discussed how we should enmesh together while we would refine it each time. For guitar-playing, from this album, I began to do sequence phrases (laugh). I would have Die-kun make waves to it while I would loop in a straightforward manner.
―It’s sort of like suppressing your emotions then. Meanwhile, Die-kun would be more on an emotional direction right?
Die: I guess so. Normally, for a distortion where you would play with a humbucker, I would be hung up with single coil. The way you hear becomes completely different. Also, as a guitarist, I had this idea of me= single coil. It’s not a stereotype, but for me, it was single coil. I was making phrases so that I could play on single coil.
―Did you feel any limitations with single coil?
Die: No, no. On the contrary, I felt possibility. Because it’s single coil, I was able to produce different sounds.
Kaoru: In my case, for Gauze, I was focusing on humbucker while I played, but for Macabre, we wanted to make a complete world-view, so we prepared many guitars, and played various phrases. We used an approach where everything progressed with an arpeggio in Zakuro for the first time, and that was fresh and difficult. This was also the first time where we would meticulously arrange each sound’s vibrancy that would change the atmosphere. I also had a personal influence of industrial and tribal music, and I wanted to incorporate that into the band too. I also began to be influenced by progressive music, and I wanted to create a twisted world. I was making guitar phrases with that mindset. I just wanted to create new sounds.
―For Macabre’s shows, did you have a sense of having the click constantly ringing in your head?
Kaoru: We made an album as a work. We didn’t think of the reproducibility for the live shows. That’s why we had a hard time for the lives (laugh).
It’s dark but pop; we were conscientious of making guitar sounds that stays with you.
―Due to that backlash, the third album full of liveliness, Kisou was born right (laugh)?
Kaoru: Right, right (laugh). Macabre’s stage was made elaborately, but for Kisou’s stage, we wanted to make it more of a live sound. With that in mind, we made up phrases. We began to cut off from what we once were. For Dir en grey to go to the next level, we couldn’t play the guitar we did before. It has to be sharper. And, it had to be absolutely fierce, with energy, and heavy. While we were making songs, we began to say “heavy” around Kisou.
Die: We used to say the word “heavy” a lot. From here, we tuned the guitar one step down too.
Kaoru: I started using a seven-string guitar.
―But what was the thinking behind your separation from your old selves?
Kaoru: This may be the wrong way to say, but I didn’t want any waft of popular music. “A-melody, B-melody, chorus, and then we could hum along with the melody;” we wanted to get rid of that. We began to think of going somewhere we’ve never been before rather than doing music that we already know of. So, we began to have a lot of riffs, but it’s with melody flowing. Before, we would play guitar parts that match the melody, but we began to think from a different point of view. Also, for the melody part, we began to focus on chords. We asked ourselves, “are there any ways to make it well-sounding?” We wanted try out different things, and we made many songs, played various phrases; not knowing whether they were well-organized but we threw in everything in one album (laugh). That became Kisou.
―The live shows have changed. You guys became a heavy band suddenly.
Kaoru: We’ve become pretty tumultuous (laugh). Since Macabre was made elaborately, we definitely had a feeling to slamming something in the lives.
Die: I guess Macabre’s backlash and our desire for freedom were expressed in a straightforward manner.
Kaoru: We wanted the chorus to scatter with a bang; we wanted to go with a slam, just something that was flashy. That doesn’t mean the song’s style is pop or flamboyant, but the progression would change suddenly with a whack (note: Kaoru is constantly using バコーン[bako-n], an onomatopoeia throughout this paragraph. Think of a hitting a tennis ball with a racket), that kind of flashiness. We would not guitar playing, sequence, or phrase in a straightforward manner, but have complete focus on the riff as we wanted to play them in a grinding way.
―But this differs from the approach during your early time right? This would be how far the two of you act up and make tight riffs. Did you have difficult times with tone and timing?
Kaoru: Having two guitars playing a riff, it’s definitely played with a different nuance. For example, in Zomboid, the riff seems like we have the same movements, but I’m using a 7-string guitar whereas Die-kun is using a 6-string guitar. It’s not a complete unison. The only one that’s near unison is The Domestic Fucker Family. We had a hard time fitting the sounds together though. We progressed the recording this way and to a certain extent, when the album was taking its shape, it was very easy to listen, and at the end, we made Pink Killer (laugh).
Die: We said, “For the sake of it, let’s make it fast,” and we made it in a rhythm that went, tsuta-tsuta or tatsu-tatsu (note: onomatopoeia; I’m not sure how it would be in English… maybe tada-tada, ta-ta?). It was fine when we made Pink Killer that way, but, when it comes to our shows, we sort of can’t play it… Since our skills are still (laugh)...
Kaoru: We would say, “Today, we still couldn’t figure out Pink Killer.” (laugh)
Die: To the point of being really embarrassed, we didn’t know whether it was together or not when we played it. The staff told us, “I wonder when Pink Killer will ever go together (laugh)?” At this time, we were just going with the flow for fast rhythms, so we weren’t getting it at all. We learned how to keep the rhythm and how to remember with our bodies a lot later.
―As you guys pursued the Kisou-series tour, “Rettou Gekishin Angya”?
Die: No, not at all. We weren’t feeling the rhythm’s bottom.
―But for six Ugly, you were playing with funk cutting.
Die: I think that’s when we started to feel the rhythm’s bottom. But what was more new was how I switched to a humbucker. I needed thick sounds that would be difficult to produce with a single coil. For the guitar’s assigned position, the two of us would each put backing on the L and R channel, and they’re not separated. We tried experimental stuff like this.
Kaoru: We wondered how we should play the guitar to create more intensity. But our reason to make six Ugly was not from our desire of experimenting, but to do more live shows. It would take too much time making a full album, so if it’s a mini-album, we would record quickly and do more touring. So we were aware of the lives when we arranged the songs.
―The next fourth album, Vulgar, seems to push forth a different level with songs and sound-making than the awareness of lives and heaviness.
Kaoru: It was a completely different awareness from six Ugly. We wanted to make something that would make anyone accept it. We recorded the songs thinking, “If Dir en grey won’t do it, then who will?”
―Concerning guitars, for one riff, both of you would change the use of sound and timing. That has also become a hook too.
Die: I guess we began to be aware of that; the thrill of something different coming out from the L and R channel.
Kaoru: While we would be in unison, we could use sounds differently where it could be dark but pop. We focused on guitar sounds that would linger in your ears. For the phrases, we also thought up of something that would linger on.
―Die-kun almost completely switched to a humbucker, but by using picking harmonics frequently, it definitely has a sharp edge that lingers in your ears.
Die: I grew up with the sound of single coil, so I definitely want that kind of sound. For sound making, I have it in a hi-up setting. It’s like, if I can’t hear that, I can’t play. And if I increase hi, then the bottom is not enough, so sound-making becomes donshari [note: I’m not sure if there’s an English word for this. Basically it’s having low (don) and high (shari) sound together and because of that there is no mid-range, and it becomes a flashy sound] (laugh).
Kaoru: Conversely, I was like mid-low is my life. That sound-making happened during Kisou. I wanted to play and make it sound gon-gon [note: onomatopoeia that sounds like you’re hitting a hard object; ex: stone] (laugh). We also began to reconsider the way for twin guitar. The feeling may be unexpectedly close to Gauze and Macabre.
―That approach was very strong in your fifth work, Withering to Death right?
Kaoru: I think it felt like we were pushing it even further. In Vulgar, for any song, we brought it into one direction.
―To a more grotesque direction.
Kaoru: Yep. But for Withering to Death, we wanted to incorporate more ambient atmosphere. So it was different from an approach of playing a lot of phrases, and there was an importance of 1 tone where a simple arpeggio could establish a song. We didn’t put too much stuff and kept simple guitar phrases, but we wanted to arrange it so that it would linger in your ear.
Die: From this point on, the phrases became simpler.
Kaoru: Right. Rather than having strange phrases, it would be something that is simply a guitar phrase. We wanted to bring that out with a raw structure. So in Vulgar, we would each play L and R channel for backing, and produced four in total, but for Withering to Death, we each simply had one for backing, which became two in total. From the L channel, it was my backing, and from the R channel, it would be Die-kun’s backing.
Die: When there are 4 of them ringing from backing, there would be thickness in the sound, but in the end, it’s very hard to produce chord-like effect.
Kaoru: And the sound’s edge. So instead of overlapping many layers of thickness, it would be nice to have a pretty guitar arrangement despite the lack of layers. With that, we wanted the guitar to sound withered. We didn’t have the mix level to be high in a loud way, but produce a natural guitar sound. We wanted the album to be in a clean direction. We were also conscious of making the melodies clean.
―But for part changes, when there would be a phrase that Kaoru-kun usually plays, Die-kun would be playing it instead and vice versa; I think there is a different confluence from the earlier phase.
Kaoru: We did have that kind of thing, but I think that had to do with me deciding on a phrase at an early stage affecting it. Until Vulgar, Die-kun would record the guitar ahead of me, and many times, I would entangle my part by play around with it. From Withering to Death, I would be like, “I’ll play it like this.” I didn’t have any mindset to do something strange. At the preproduction stage, the guitar phrases were completed when we went on to record. Even during recording, I would have many takes ahead where I would play an arpeggio ahead, which is something Die-kun usually plays.
―In Vulgar, there was something you guys grasped onto and therefore, did the arrangement go into a natural direction? Even with that (approach), you guys could show your colors. Well, the things you guys do are already unnatural (laugh).
Kaoru: I said something close to that before, but I really wanted this to be an album that was easy to listen. The melodies would be clean, and the album would not be all mashed up. We would reduce all the unnecessary stuff, scratching them away, and all the good stuff surfaces up. Not adding anything in. Playing wise, for me, I began to play arpeggio phrases again.
―On top of that, you began use more interval through phrasing.
Kaoru: I agree, I thought a great deal of phrases with ambient atmosphere. Also, that type of guitar interaction increased. And for Vulgar, the tuning had C# and D mixed together, but from Withering to Death, all the songs became C#.
―Did you consider the songs’ feeling and atmosphere and then decided on the unification (tuning)?
Kaoru: What? No, it’s because we’ve become lazy to change the guitars during lives (laugh). “Let’s go with C# for everything.” Also, Kyo said, “I want something heavy, so have it low.” He still says that even now. He seems to like the banging sound with mute (laugh).
We wanted to make sounds any ways possible by being hung up with our guitars.
―You started using the VP prototype that was the previous one from your current main guitar?
Kaoru: It was the one that still had an arm. For the next The Marrow of a Bone, I began to use my new model guitar.
―The 6th work, The Marrow of a Bone has many elements as approach mixed together with superb balance. There would be guitar riffs that pierce through with a groove for one song, putting on a hook with different use of sounds, and of course, phrases would emphasize on interval, and some riffs would be outright wicked.
Kaoru: Yes. I guess it was big to make songs while we toured. It wasn’t in a roundabout sort of a way where we had more songs that was cramming. And from The Marrow of a Bone’s recording, we began to have a guitar tech with us. Before, we were making sounds on our own, but we were feeling our limitations. Even if it sounded good during the recording phase, the overall product would not turn out to be satisfactory.
Die: So we changed our entire recording staff.
Kaoru: From recording engineer to everything, it was all new; we began to make it with a fresh feeling once more.
―For engineer, it‘s Koni-Young-san and Minemori-san for guitar tech. They are staff full of experience.
Kaoru: I think this encounter was huge. The engineer who is also a guitarist and the relevance of guitar became immense. He was very strict with ringing and sounding.
Die: I think it changed drastically. During recording, he would tell us strictly on how we played or how to hold our fret.
―He criticized you on basic parts?
Die: Rather, he gave us a lot of ideas of doing this and that.
Kaoru: Yep. He was like that with the position for picking. Also, say if you want to lay at a certain musical tone, the fingering gets difficult, so you would try to play with a different string. On the plain string on the third, we would change it into a wound string and try playing with that.
Die: Oh, yeah, we were doing lots of stuff. That was also really fun.
Kaoru: We began to focus on the guitar’s nuance more.
―That must have set you off as guitarists. Did your welling of ideas during recording differ in some ways too?
Kaoru: This happened during Uroboros’ recording, but we really made imagery important. For this song, let’s make a sound that makes us imagine this picture or film. For Uroboros’ Doukoku to Sarinu, during the middle part, he (engineer) told us to think of the atmosphere of Bruce Lee’s Game of Death where the hotel girl was called (laugh).
Die: He is an engineer that fans up our feelings (laugh).
Kaoru: As we would think, “There was a scene like that,” and play the guitar, he would be like, “That’s it!” And he becomes all happy (laugh). During the guitar recording, abstract words began swirling around. Also, even with the guitar phrases are played at front, there’s actually a plucking guitar sound on the other side. We definitely wanted to be hung up with guitars and do everything to produce sounds. What I just said connects back to our current recording style, which was The Marrow of a Bone.
―Did you have many conversations while you played your phrases?
Kaoru: Before, each of us would play the guitar we wanted to play, but from The Marrow of a Bone, we would intentionally use different guitar or the same one. We also tried out the same amp. We did that kind of stuff. For example, for a unison phrase, to make it the same thermal sense (note: I guess it’s talking how the sound would have warmth or cold if that makes any sense), the two of us would use the same guitar. For unison, we tried to unify as much as possible. Or else, we would have been making sound that was completely divided. Now that I think back, the guitar phrase for Namemakashiki Ansoku, Tomadoi ni Hohoemi was undecided. An unclear phrase existed. And, when I was about to record, I played a phrase that I came up on the spot, and I asked Die-kun, “What do you think of this?” We were deciding everything on the spot.
Die: Rather than decided phrases, it was more of an inspiration.
Kaoru: At the moment, we had abstract words like, “I could see that” or “This scenery is spreading out”.
Die: Everyone would imagine that (abstract words), make sounds, and play them out on guitar; it was work to draw closer to the words.
―But it’s difficult, no? Having abstract words to share your will and thoughts in common?
Die: Even if we imagined something, each of us would come up with something different.
Kaoru: The guitars on The Marrow of a Bone overall has phrases with edge. But within that, we had phrases that valued puffy airiness, and I really wanted that nuance to be important. This was again through communicating with abstract words. Also, the first-pressed edition of The Marrow of a Bone had an Unplugged Disc, and that was the first time to play acoustic guitar together and record. We did have songs that had the two of us play on acoustic guitar, but for the Unplugged Disc, we did a song that only come into existence acoustically, and that was a first. We decided on the arrangement in a day. The two of us would decide, “What should we do now? Let’s do it this way next. Let’s make a development that uses intervals.” In the end it was like, “That’ll be good enough” (laugh). The next day, we recorded.
―This unplugged doesn’t sound like a work where you guys easily decided on things.
Kaoru: Well, I guess so.
―In the past, even if you had an idea, your skills were not good enough and it was a struggle being unable to make it into shape. Do you have problem now on how to develop your idea and boil it down?
Kaoru: We began to yearn for something more than an idea we come up in our minds. If it just ends with an idea, it’s not interesting. It has to be something beyond that. Skill is something you would acquire if you play a lot, but making it beyond our imagination was really difficult. When we decided on the sound for The Marrow of a Bone, it took a lot of time because we wanted the end result in a certain way, and we sought severely after it.
It’s natural to have the 2 of us playing guitar
―Next, we’re finally heading to your recent work, Uroboros. Before that, going this far, I think your impression on each other has changed. As of now, what kind of guitarist do you think the other person is?
Die: Well, he’s liberating. Of course, we think about the guitar arrangement together, but during that process, we’re together or never disengaged.
Kaoru: It’s natural to have him next to me. It has become natural to have 2 guitars sounding, so conversely, in a good way, I’m not thinking of this guy too much. Also, I really think these days that we’re creating Dir en grey’s style. When we make song, the two of us create the world, the drum and bass come in, and the vocals ride on it. Recently, that kind of creating method is becoming the main way. So at first, the guitars create the world-view, and from that point on, it’s about how the other members approach it. For a couple of years now, it’s becoming like that.
Die: So it doesn’t feel like we’re separated even if we’re recording (individual parts). My sound would be something the two of us make. So we would share our ideas and decide on what sound to use.
―The existence of each other make use of one’s own approach, and from there, more ideas emerge then?
Kaoru: Yep, I think so. So there’s absolutely no sensation of doing everything on your own. Even if I were to first present an idea, then Die-kun’s idea would come in, and receiving that, I would come up with another idea. Overlapping this interaction, our guitar phrases are created. Nothing is completely decided, and if the sound produced at that moment is good, then I would get on top of it. Then Die-kun would come in, and then I’ll also get in, and it’s that repetition.
―It’s not a verbal interaction, but producing sounds or phrases that make the reciprocation of imagination to grow?
Kaoru: I suppose that’s what it means. Because nothing is decided, we can’t read each other’s minds. In that situation, if we were to interact through words, it would be like, “How are you playing that phrase?” We have something like that (laugh). “What fret are you using for that sound?” We’d have conversation about specific use of sound. Otherwise, as it’s said before, we would have abstract words buzzing around.
―You’re saying that it’s an interaction of imagination.
Die: I think so. So the way we think about phrases would have guitar for the sake of making ambient atmosphere as the most important thing in our minds. What is the right phrase that would match this ambient atmosphere? When we play our guitar casually and see an abstract image, we would make phrases that would approximate it.
―It’s not song-making based on phrases, but phrases based on song-making.
Die: Right. So our awareness is on a completely different place than before.
Kaoru: Speaking of crystallizing our image, it doesn’t just end with the guitar, but from the guitar’s ambient atmosphere, we would think of the bass’s movement. Way back, we wouldn’t really care too much about that, but now, if the guitar will move with this sound, then the bass should move this way. We have a strong sense of having guitar and bass together as a whole.
Die: Including that, we began to think about sound-making; especially after we got a new engineer from The Marrow of a Bone.
Kaoru: For parts that can’t just have guitar to make the song established, we would use a method where the song becomes established because there is movement in bass.
―You guys already created something close to an orchestration with expanding sound that included bass as a string instrument in Vulgar’s Kasumi and Drain Away.
Kaoru: We began doing that since that time, but now, we’re making it even more firmly. For Uroboros, we were thinking about that since the demo phase.
There couldn’t be anyone easier to see the change and growth as guitarists than the 2 of us.
―But do the people overseas find this guitar combo to be rare? There’s no division of roles saying which one will play lead or backing, and for each song’s situation, your approach would change.
Kaoru: I’m not sure what we’re thought of specifically. But when we began to play on overseas festivals, there are many metal bands, and in that aspect, they find us uncommon. They constantly ask us which one is lead guitar. Even if we were a band with twin guitars, I think we’re at a completely different place.
Die: Even for the phrases we play, we would have melodies likely of Japanese. Many times, there would be voice of surprise like “Whoa!” At the same time, here, we realize of our own uniqueness too.
Kaoru: Also, when we toured with foreign bands, many would create sounds based on touring. All the sound sounds the same and where ever you go, it becomes that sound. But in our case, we don’t think like that. The sound source is sound source, but when it’s touring, we would think of a sound for touring.
―As guitarists, is there something you guys can say proudly of how you guys can’t lose against anyone?
Die: It’s hard to speak about ourselves.
Kaoru: I think that’s something there since the beginning where each of us may play with a different groove, but it’s firmly there and established on the same level. Each of us may play a phrase with different vectors, but there’s nothing strange about that in Dir en grey. Rather, this becomes unique. I think that’s something others don’t have. We’re never said that we’re this type of guitarist (laugh).
―What is most amazing is that you guys are constantly evolving. But even with that, you guys have your eccentric way.
Die: Oh, I see.
Kaoru: In this interview, we’ve talked about our first album up to now right? If you listen to all the sound again, there are many parts where we’ve changed or grown as guitarists, and there’s no one more obvious than us to see this. Well, even if I say growth, now, it’s like a child whose sort of becoming an adult (laugh).
―You’re saying that you haven’t completely grown up.
Kaoru: Yes. And as a band too. Also, the most enjoyable aspect is how we didn’t decide on something to be “this is absolutely this way”. I’m the type where I have to try out; you can’t be for sure unless you challenge things out. So far our recent work, Uroboros, it’s not just for people who listen to heavy music, but I think it’s made so that people who doesn’t listen to that type of music could enjoy it.
Translation: Cammie