Questions of Constitutionality

[direwolf23]

Yeah, I know, you've only just read the title and you're already yawning and contemplating fuzzy naps. Thankfully, Dr. Tiggyfluff here has selflessly agreed to take that nap for you so you can continue and read the post.

Comments

[foxplay]

So how are religous schools exactly legal? they are privately funded, but its not the childs choice to go there. They may THINK its their choice, but in essence they are sent to them by their parents

The fact that they are public / private makes little diffrence to me even if they are 100% funded privately with absolutely no state funding, or federal or state tax breaks (read:not likely) I believe they infringe upon the rights of the child, and thus should be 100% illegal and brought to court as well.

IMO thats just me, ppl are free to believe in their imaginary friends and be batshitcrazy fucktarded adults if they want to, but it needs to be a choice at or after age of consent, and thus out of the school system entirely.

[direwolf23]

Only government funded school aren't allowed to have religious messages, and there is nothing in our law that states a parent can't teach their religion and/or principles to their own child. *shrugs*

I understand your concern for indoctrination, but I've never head a viable solution presented that addresses this issue, and I don't think we'll ever have one proscribed by law. I think that you're best hope would be a future where it isn't socially acceptable to introduce someone to religion until they're at an age that they can fully understand what they're being presented with and make an informed decision about it.

[foxplay]

Indoctrination is a problem in itself, but a religous school set up as a place of learning can also be extremly harmfull to the childs education as set by the standards of today.

A long time ago everybody thought the world was flat, think that nowadays and they will put you in a straight jacket and give you some meds to laugh the stupid away.

I see no diffrence in religous institutions of learning as any theory or "damn well proven fact with plenty of evidence" conflicting with their religous teachings will either A) Not be taught at all B) Be presented to the children but in a negative manner and not a stance of neutrality C) beat the fuck out of kids with a ruler for thinking such evil thoughts

[direwolf23]

The problem here is that the respect has to go both ways. Even if we don't agree with a belief, that doesn't mean we necessarily have the right to stop people from believing it.

Something that is important to remember when it comes to issues like this is not to conflate the ridiculous beliefs with all the rest. I'm pretty sure you're primary issues with religion are the same as mine in that you don't think it's right to hold beliefs that denigrate others, lead to persecution, or attempt to contradict modern science/reality/or social equality.

The law itself is very restricted in this area from acting, because we're lucky enough to live in a country where you can hold whatever belief you want. The best the law can do is restrict activities that will lead to injustice or inequality, while still not preventing beliefs. From there, it's up to us to help change people's minds about what is and isn't acceptable. Which, incidentally, is something I am attempting to do all the time. ^.^

[kanickb]

"The truth of the matter is simply that 90%+ of the incidents involving a religious group trying to slip their beliefs into the public school system are perpetrated by Christians/Christian Groups"

I think that is mainly coming from the fact that parents or faculty know that the majority of students attending the school are Christian, so they think they can get away with it. Plus, I can't help but laugh at the thought of the kind of response the parents would make if it was another religion trying to insert itself into the school :P

[direwolf23]

Heh, yeah. I certainly agree. What's funny is that many of the people who do this see nothing wrong with working to get Religion B out of the school, and then turning around and trying to get their own religion in school. o.0 Truly, the mindset of these people are painful beyond description.

[kanickb]

I hear them pull "This country was founded on Christianity" a lot when people argue that point. Although that may be true, there's also a certain document they forgot about that says there's freedom of religion. Makes me shake my head.

[vulpology]

My test for this is very simple. Take a situation, replace the word "Christian" with a religion that "hardcore Christians" dislike/misunderstand and replace the words Ten Commandments/Bible/prayer with something from that religion.

Take your new situation devoid of Christianity, but still having a religion, and read it to a Christian who would agree with the original story.

If they are "shocked", then it is indeed a mix of state/religion that shouldn't be allowed. :D

[ziabandito555]

The truth of the matter is simply that 90%+ of the incidents involving a religious group trying to slip their beliefs into the public school system are perpetrated by Christians/Christian Groups.

Would it not have made more sense to argue that as a religion in the majority as such there would be more of them in the country as such they're just more likely to have displays or interaction that move into the courts? You know instead of using hyperbole without citation that a person could easily point out the fallacy of and hen use to deconstruct your argument.

[direwolf23]

It might, but I was roughly using the court cases as reference *shrugs* Hyperbole has it's place. Don't hate on it. :P

[ziabandito555]

Sorry you know me. ^.^ i agree the court cases were good and i'm glad you cited them.

[direwolf23]

No worries, it's a valid concern and critique, and in future I'll do my best to abstain from interjection hyperbole in my arguments. It'll be tough though. Oh how I love my hyperbole.

[enders_shadow]

Very sadly, there are a number of utter idiots out there who believe that this is a Christian nation.

Despite the overwhelming evidence against that, they maintain their belief.

The other day I was accused of being "an Islam". This man began by slamming Obama and ACORN and making the Hitler w/ school children comparison. Then he threw in the something about why can't we have Christmas celebrations in school.

I responded by reminding him of the first amendment. To which he reminded me of "In God We Trust" being on our money.
I responded that the Supreme Court had to rule that acceptable--also it's not particular to religion.

He proceeded to inform me, that from his view, the Constitution only mentions one religion and it is God.
I told him God is not a religion.
He insisted it was. And it was the Christian religion.
I said "In Islam they believe in God too."
To which he said: "What are you, some kind of Islam?! Get out of here." and then he stormed off.

I sometimes wonder if re-education camps are such a bad idea.

[direwolf23]

That is just so sad, though expected.

Read this and become enlightened as to why they seem, and are, so crazy:
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

[ziabandito555]

everyone has their theories: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09182009/watch.html

that doesn't mean they are right