More debate on broodiness

[djpsyche]

Mainly in case ford_prefect42 doesn't come back to my previous post.

"I kinda figure that everyone has an inborn compulsion to reproduce. It's kinda evolutionary."It's an interesting theory and I'd like to pick it apart

Comments

[ford_prefect42]

Well, one sort of counter-argument is to look at how many people that start out at "I will never have children" actually *do* change their minds. It's really the vast majority. IE, "Pretty much everyone" does end up either with children, or regretting the lack. Exceptions exist, of course

[djpsyche]

Well, one sort of counter-argument is to look at how many people that start out at "I will never have children" actually *do* change their minds. It's really the vast majority. IE, "Pretty much everyone" does end up either with children, or regretting the lack.

And what is your source for this, please? Other than projecting your own experience onto everyone else, which is, of course, what I am probably doing as well when I see lots of people NOT changing their minds?

I'd also remind you that most people != all people.

So let's ask Google:
Part of this article seems to be missing, but three out of three child-free subjects did not change their minds in 12 years.
Can't read this entire article, and this follow-up found that of the couples profiled, one did change their mind, but the others did not

[beluosus]

And what is your source for this, please? Other than projecting your own experience onto everyone else, which is, of course, what I am probably doing as well when I see lots of people NOT changing their minds?

Psyche, I don't think you're projecting. You are drawing inferences about what people feel from the information they present. Lots of people we know say they don't want kids and are happy not having them; there is no a priori reason to believe that they are lying or deluded when they tell you this.

And the proportion of childless people who regret not reproducing seems insignificant compared to the myriad of people who do regret having children.

[djpsyche]

I'm allowing for confirmation bias. When I see other people who said they didn't want kids and then didn't change their mind, this affirms my own experience, so I'm more likely to see this as the norm. ford_prefect42 sees the opposite as confirmation that his experience is the typical one. My rough guess is that it's probably somewhere around 50/50; but then I usually place odds of things at 50/50 when I've seen some of each thing, and of course those numbers are at least somewhat inaccurate.

[shewho]

nope, i pretty much agree with what you've written. (n.b. not seen the other post yet!)

the only couple of twinges towards parenthood i've had have been akin to wondering whether i should have a sandwich or not, and deciding pretty quickly i don't actually want one.

i hate the way societal expectation makes you have to question yourself (especially as a woman) and come up for all sorts of reasons for not wanting to reproduce. justify how you feel. bloody ridiculous.

(if i ever DO have some sort of brain injury that causes me to reverse my whole personality and become desperate for a child, adoption is the way forward. for a whole heap of logical and personal reasons.)

[robot_mel]

I definitely don't agree that everyone has the inborn compulsion to reproduce. People enjoy sex BECAUSE of evolution. Evolution has made sex pleasurable and given us hormones to want it to encourage reproduction of the species. But that is totally different to EVERYONE MUST FEEL THE DESIRE TO MAKE BABIES!

I think a lot of of people breed without considering it. It just seems what people do. I think the more you think about the reasons to have kids, or not, the more it becomes very obvious that having kids is nothing more than selfish desire.

[djpsyche]

I think you're right, Mel. Having kids is such hard work that nature has evolved us humans in such a way as to make sex so pleasurable we'll even risk pregnancy!

I wouldn't say having kids is selfish or not having kids is selfish. People are different. Some people are suited to be parents and some are not.

[robot_mel]

For me with over population and so many unwanted kids in the world breeding for the sake of carrying on your own genetic material seems selfish. If you want to be a parent, foster or adopt. Until every child already born has a home I don't see the need to make more.

[djpsyche]

I don't see a need either, but I try not to judge, even if I cannot understand why anyone would want to be a parent. Those people aren't me and if having kids makes them happier, fair enough.

Besides, almost everything we do is "selfish" when you think about it. Wanting to live in a nice home or have a job you enjoy is "selfish", isn't it? Yet it's perfectly fine to pursue those things.

[beluosus]

If you could define "an inborn compulsion to reproduce" as "a curiosity as to what their offspring would look/be like," then yeah, I do think that everyone has probably pondered on this at some point in their lives.

I've never wanted offspring, and I've never had any curiosity as to what form they would take.

I don't understand why people who ascribe to a commonly-held viewpoint frequently decide that everyone necessarily holds the same view, even if they don't realise it or have it only in a very limited degree. I've gotten the 'you will change your mind someday' speech from my mum on more than one occasion. Along with the 'you'll grow out of the goth phase' speech. Her inability to see that I might hold a different opinion has yet to alter the fabric of reality do that only her opinion remains.

[djpsyche]

beluosus, robot_mel, let me ask you: In my previous post I claimed that women get "you'll change your mind" more often than men do. As a long-term child-free couple, do you agree?

[robot_mel]

I hardly ever hear it. I can think of a couple instances in the past 10 years and one was from an East Asian woman, who I excused as part of her culture, and the other from random taxi driver (also Asian). Among the people I hang out with it just doesn't come up in conversation.

[beluosus]

Women get it more because they have the uterus, and society expects them to love children.

Men and women both get it from their families. Women get it from everybody else too, both acquaintences and strangers.

[sushidog]

Well, I've never wanted to reproduce nor had any curiosity as to what my children would look like, but it's kind of a moot point (exceptions exist to most rules when it comes to human behaviour, after all); the key point here is the idea of any such compulsion being innate or inevitable, and the problem with that idea is that it is impossible to test. We live in a society which needs us to have babies, and which tells us (women particularly, but men too) that we are worth more, and will be more satisfied, if we have children than if we don't. We teach out tiny children that being a parent is good and important and desirable, and indeed we teach little girls that "being a mummy" is what they should aspire to. So of course a lot of women, having been told throughout their lives from a very early age that they should want kids, end up wanting kids. But there needn't be anything innate about that; it could be entirely socialised, in the same way that wearing make-up or high heels or wanting to be a pop star is socialised.