More debate on broodiness

[djpsyche]

Mainly in case ford_prefect42 doesn't come back to my previous post.

"I kinda figure that everyone has an inborn compulsion to reproduce. It's kinda evolutionary."It's an interesting theory and I'd like to pick it apart

Comments

[zenithed]

I feel like it's hard to say what's 'natural' without excluding the effects of social pressure and norms, which are tremendously powerful.

It's like when you hear politicians say that everyone aspires to own a home - well, sure, I can see how it might look that way, but that's only because we've set up our economy a certain way and it's constantly reinforced through the media, it's not hard to think of a system where that isn't the case.

I'm guessing it's not a coincidence that many of the people I know who've chosen to be child-free are also non-conformist in other ways, and generally don't give a stuff what society thinks.

[djpsyche]

Well yes, but owning a home is artificial, but breeding is primal. Are child-free people consciously overriding their primal urges (and social pressure), or do some people simply not have those urges while others do?

The "women have always made efforts to avoid pregnancy" argument isn't necessarily a convincing one, either. While a woman may want to not get pregnant *now* or *by this particular partner*, that's not proof that she won't want to breed at some point in the future.

[zenithed]

I think it's fair to say that there is definitely social pressure on people to have kids, and social pressure has an effect on people (and people can confuse it with innate instincts, which is what I was trying to get at with the housing analogy).

I definitely fall on the side of there not being an innate urge to have kids. I've certainly never felt one, but I guess it's hard to rule out without putting yourself in someone's head. Even if there were, people overcome natural urges all the time, it's basically what defines civilisation.

[djpsyche]

I agree. So saying that everyone is innately a breeder is just as (in)accurate as saying that everyone is innately a murderer.

[ford_prefect42]

This was an awful lot of reaction to an "I kinda think" statement

[sushidog]

However, as one of the *last* people that I knew when I was 14-30 that remains without children,
OK, but that's your (necessarily limited) experience; you can't generalise from that. I know literally dozens of people in their late thirties and forties who are happily child-free and regret-free, myself included.

As for "social pressures", tell me, do binobos have "social pressures"? Rats? Sheep? And yet *all* of them reproduce, almost without exception. But bonobos (and rats, and sheep, and every other animal too) don't have an innate urge to reproduce; they have an innate urge to breed. That's a different thing, and you seem to be conflating the two

[ford_prefect42]

Again, you're responding to a fair number of things I either didn't say, or of which I said the opposite.

I wasn't maintaining my prior position based on my (limited) experience, I was explaining why I had come to it to begin with.

I wasn't saying that humans don't have social pressures, I was pointing out that, with or without social pressures, reproduction is near-universal.

I specifically *did* say that it's entirely possible that this is all down to sex drive rather than a desire to reproduce.

In future, you should try to read to the end of a comment before replying.

[sushidog]

Again, you're responding to a fair number of things I either didn't say, or of which I said the opposite.
No, I'm not. I'm responding very specifically to things you did say, an which I've explicitly quoted. I'm not sure why you're claiming otherwise, given that the quotes are right there, in italics, in my comment.

I wasn't maintaining my prior position based on my (limited) experience, I was explaining why I had come to it to begin with.
But you followed with " I won't try to argue that it's logical, or rational, or that it's anything other than selfish. It's primal, but it's there." That makes it sound as though you are still maintaining the same position, not just explaining why you used to think that way.

I wasn't saying that humans don't have social pressures, I was pointing out that, with or without social pressures, reproduction is near-universal.Why bring in the fact that bonobos, rats and sheep don't have social pressure (actually, bonobos do; they ostracise members of the group who misbehave) if not to try and suggest

[erming]

The one thing I'd say from this is I think everyone who's posted has a fair point

[erming]

Oh and the thing about anecdotal evidence is most people quote the anecdotes that meet their views!

[djpsyche]

Certainly when my mum was cooing over my sister being pregnant she was all "you'll change your views on children when you have ones you are closely related to".

That has happened for me, but "changing my views on children" took the form of "allowing that other people's children can be tolerable at times" rather than "changing my views about whether I personally want children."

[ellebabe]

- Societal pressure to have children, even if you yourself feel no compulsion
- Desire to please a partner, even if you yourself feel no compulsion
- Accidental pregnancy and religious beliefs/lack of access to abortion/the man not getting a sayI totally agree with the above

[djpsyche]

in my experience, this doesn't let up no matter how many "life milestones" you achieve. Things such as getting married ("now you can have kids") buying a home ("all that room just for the two of you") getting pets ("are you trying to fill a child shaped hole") - I am hoping it dies off sometime by menopause.

I'm sorry this is continuing for you, Elle. I guess it depends on the person -- people look at me and see hips that are not cut out for child-bearing, boobs that couldn't feed a mouse's baby, a lifestyle that's completely non-conducive to parenthood, so it's no surprise I'm viewed as one of the (not so) "rare" exceptions. (Besides, my sisters have provided Mum with grandkids, so there's no need for me to fulfil that role.)

I do think that some people must have an "inborn compulsion" -- I know people who are blissfully happy being parents. As odd as that seems to me, I'm glad they're happy. Saves the likes of us from having to propagate the species, eh? *wry five*

[ellebabe]

I'm sorry this is continuing for you, Elle. I guess it depends on the person

Thanks - it is not so bad, really. Amusingly, I find it says more about the thought processes of others than it does my lifestyle choices.

RSJS and I often look at each other and hi-five about being child free.

Re: propagating the species - there is something about that drive that is quite compelling.

I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing humankind dies off in the next 50-100 years. I figure we had a good run, achieve quite a bit and stuff up quite a bit too.

According to some of my friends (who happen to have kids), this makes me a misanthrope.