a repost so this can be public.

[dubonnetcherry]

If You Need To Make A Tiny Cry To Feel Superior
You Are The Problem
In Defense Of Mary Sue: She's Not The Enemy

trigger warnings: misogyny, internalized misogyny, poke me if I missed something.

I'm going to assume that I don't actually need to define Mary Sue for you, and arguably it's a tough thing to clearly define for anyone at this point in

Comments

[rainbowjehan]

Oooh. Tasty chewy thoughts.

[dubonnetcherry]

Thank you.

[dawn_felagund]

I found your post via the Metafandom Delicious page, and I wanted to thank you for writing it and articulating so much more coherently (and concisely! :) what I've been trying to say for years. When I started participating in the Tolkien fandom (subspecies Silmarillion) seven years ago, I am ashamed to admit that I made some snide comments about Mary Sue stories in the context of not wanting my stories to be MS stories ... I was in my mid-20s with a degree in writing and a handful of original pieces published, for pity's sake; my stories weren't going to be MS stories. But all the cool kids made MS jokes, so I did too. By bandying about the lingo, of course, I proved I was part of the community. In my defense, I was so new that I didn't even really understand what "Mary Sue" was, much less understand it as a phenomenon confined almost entirely to the teenage portion of fandom that I obviously wasn't part of. And I never made a comment directly to a writer of MS

[dubonnetcherry]

It's a really pervasive thing in fandom - like, I can't remember which post I made the comments on now, but I've mentioned how I do know that there are a segment of fandom folks who do this when they're around the same age, dealing with the same issues, often, and just dealing in a different way that's kind of shitty, but...you know, shitty in a way that they typically grow out of and recognize was pointless and move on from. The problem I have is the fact that it's being pushed along and normalized by actual fucking adults who should know better, who are often the same people talking about their bullying experiences as children in other parts of fandom and, frustratingly, not seeing what they themselves are doing to the early experiences of fandom for other young girls. We all fuck up, I just wish more of us learned from it and less of us treated it like totally acceptable fandom behaviour. It feels to me like it often doesn't occur to people to question it, or even that they're made to feel they shouldn't question it, so I figured

[dubonnetcherry]

SIDENOTE: What is a Metafandom Delicious page? it occurred to me a while after I replied to you that I have no idea what that is.

[dawn_felagund]

It's the collection of links to interesting fandom discussions maintained on Delicious by the community metafandom. Here's a link. They used to do a regular newsletter here on LJ, but that hasn't been out for months now and is much missed by me. I happily found their Delicious page today, which brought me to your post! :)

[spiced_wine]

Mary Sue, more often than not, comes down to internalized misogyny and bullying children. I want my fandoms to be better than that.

Here, here.

I don't, myself, want to read stories by very young authors because I'm older, but golly, did I write them in private when I was younger? Yes. (In private because there was no internet) Did I enjoy them? Yes, they actually helped me through some really terrible times. And if I look back (because I still have some saved on paper) I can see what I was doing: I was struggling, growing, progressing. I was able to control a fictional world when I could not control the real one. I wonder how many young authors are doing the same, and finding the real world jumping into their fragile creation with wrecking balls?

No mature person should be hunting out teenage fic for the sole purpose of opening both barrels on it. To me, reading is a pleasure, and I read stories I enjoy. It seems peculiar to me to read to hate, and to hate so vociferously.

[dubonnetcherry]

It doesn't really surprise me - it's so normalized for a reason, after all - but it is disappointing and depressing. The goalposts are always being moved, because this kind of sneering is about superiority- it's frustrating and it's bullshit.

[pandemonium_213]

If I said I came into fan fiction rather late in life (in my 50s), that would be largely correct. A peculiar confluence of reading American Prometheus (biography of J. Robert Oppenheimer) followed by The Silmarillion, which I had read and re-read from 1977 to 1987, after which time I read no fantasy whatsoever, prodded me to write a screed about Tolkien's apparent attitudes toward scientists and engineers on Science Blogs (no longer a blogger there). I figured I could continue to rail against and/or analyze Tolkien in non-fiction format, but decided that perhaps fan fiction might serve as a more entertaining (for me) outlet for my critique of Tolkien. I had only an inkling of what fan fic was, thanks to my daughter, who wrote Harry Potter fan fic, and to the movie TrekkiesUpon my explorations of Tolkienian fan fiction, I observed the phenomenon of derision against "Mary Sues," from the merely snide to outright vitriolic. However, I was exposed to some excellent fan fiction, which drew me into the milieu. Among the writers who

[dubonnetcherry]

Thank you! I do think it's really interesting how consistently common these kind of stories are among early and mid teen fans- your experience in the '70s, mine in the late '90s and early '00s. It's a fantasy thing that a lot of us do, I really don't like how it's been demonized. The whole "Mary Sue conversation" has felt - to me - like it's framed in a way I'm really not comfortable with in general.

You are welcome, also. I didn't expect many people to see it when I first wrote it, so the response has been a pleasant surprise.

[heartofoshun]

Mary Sue, more often than not, comes down to internalized misogyny and bullying children. I want my fandoms to be better than that.

Yes! You brought tears to my eyes and I am a crusty old lady who has worked as a non-fiction writer and editor most of her life. I started writing fiction (fanfiction!) a few years ago and even with my experience and at my ripe old age I was an amateur, a beginner.

She's unrealistic in every way. Here's my question: so what?

Or put another way, she's a classic... "a little daughter was born to her, with skin as white as snow, lips as red as blood, and hair as black as ebony" is that so very different from the half-elven violet-eyed heroine of fanfiction? I am all for supporting and not trashing young writers, especially young women writers.

[dubonnetcherry]

Aaaa, that is a perspective (the Snow White reference) I hadn't considered, but I like it a lot! It's a good point.

I've been thinking today about how not all of the young women who write these stories are going to stick with writing, and that's also fine? It doesn't mean they stopped because they were overwhelmed by how shitty they were and quit out of shame (and yes, I'm citing something here that I've actually heard- heard as a suggestion of a Good Outcome of this kind of behaviour, even), maybe it just means that they got something out of those stories for a while, and they don't need it any more. That's cool, too. They have a right to that space, and to decide what it is to them, and to move on from it.