The problem is when the shipping becomes nasty and some people use also personal offences or stuff like that. I can be friendly to those who ship something different when I'm treated with respect. Personally I'm open to differences: I can understand the love for Willow, for example, even if I identify with Buffy or I can appreciate good Bangel moments. I was neutral about Dawn, but kwritten's metas are so interesting and I'm becoming more and more interested about her
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The problem is when the shipping becomes nasty and some people use also personal offences or stuff like that. I can be friendly to those who ship something different when I'm treated with respect.
Exactly THIS.
And big YES to the love for kwritten's work , which is desperately needed in fandom IMO.
It is all about respect. I know I've been disrespectful in the past, but now I don't have the time to worry myself into a fit about the things that used to make me go off. And I know that you've had bad experiences in fandom, so you've probably realized the same thing.
I am both a shipper and someone who does her best to treat everyone with respect (even those who hate Willow, who I must say is my absolute favorite character). It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences and I am so glad to see you pointing that out here. Thanks for using the post-structuralist model, btw, as, believe it or not, that's something I've been looking at and pondering myself lately. (How I got there from looking at Yellowism and then Dogme 95 is a tale for another day... or maybe not. It's dull to anyone who isn't me.)
It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences
And it still needs to be said *le sigh*
Thanks for using the post-structuralist model, btw, as, believe it or not, that's something I've been looking at and pondering myself lately. (How I got there from looking at Yellowism and then Dogme 95 is a tale for another day... or maybe not. It's dull to anyone who isn't me.)
I'm sure I'd be fascinated by that - if I knew what everyone was talking about. (And I was the kid in school who was accused of using "long words" and was so smug about it. Karma's a bitch, indeed.)
This fandom is like going back to college for me. Everyone keep talking - I may not have a clue 99% of the time but I might pick up one or two tidbits along the way!
It is completely possible to feel an overwhelming sense of emotion and connection toward your favorite ships and characters without being a jerk to others who don't share your particular preferences
This, exactly, was my point (I think - I didn't exactly have a clear thesis and I think I used some circular logic, but I think you nailed what I was going for!)
Shippers are seen as lesser because they largely cannot draw the line between the content of the work and their own ideas, wishes and hopes inspired by and derived from the original work. They are not fans of the original work, they are fans of the derived content. This is the root of the conflict between shippers and non-shippers.
Fans say "Thanks, Star Trek, for your masculinist narrative, but I'm going to ship Kirk/Spock and create my own narrative."
See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up. There is no romantic relationship between Kirk and Spock in the original work. You are free to fetishize those characters in your fan fiction or your sexual fantasies thus creating your own derived content but this is not the original work anymore.
we all over identify with our favoritesNo, we do not. You are projecting your own
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They are not fans of the original work, they are fans of the derived content. This is the root of the conflict between shippers and non-shippers. [...] See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Kirk/Spock was possibly not the best example. Yes, many shippers take characters that are not couples in canon and run away and write curtain fic (or PWP or whatever) and that's fine, no matter whether the writers are deliberately adding UST with a trowel, or whether the characters have barely met. However, many many ships are canon, and are indeed the backbone of the show/narrative in question. Take Doctor Who for example - when the show returned (in 2005) it was deliberately based around the Ninth Doctor/Rose relationship. The Eleventh Doctor goes on to marry River Song, and their story is at the heart of S6. Tony Stark/Pepper Potts is an ongoing storyline of the Iron Man movies. This is not 'personal derived content', it's show canon. You
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(Heck, how many years of UST did X Files get out of Mulder and Scully's will-they-won't-they?
I believe it was 8, but even the 'confirmation' was so oblique that there was another year of in-fighting before it was confirmed. And then it was basically the only thing the last film was about. :)
Is Mulder/Scully 'personal derived content'?
For years and years of fandom wars it was considered to be so. But... whahahahahaha! Shippers won.:D
Or how about Niles/Daphne on Frasier? Peter and Olivia (Fringe), Aeryn and Crichton (Farscape), Mitchell and Annie (Being Human. Never shipped them, personally, but there were those who did). Apollo/Starbuck (Battlestar Galactica. Actually I HATED that ship but there were people who loved it), Hook/Emma shippers OUAT, etc.
I just get peeved over the concept that "shippers ruin fandom." There are plenty of angry fanboys/girls to ruin fandom over all sorts of crazified personal nitpicks. Fandom = fan wars. It's always something.
I'm getting the feeling that you don't like subjectivity, but it's something that every fan brings to the table. Every fan has their own life experiences that inform how they view characters, relationships, and entire media works. From your tone I'm getting that you don't accept the fact that there are fans different from you who have different reasons to like different things about the same media work.
See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up. Just because you can't see a homoerotic subtext in Star Trek, or Sherlock, or Supernatural, doesn't mean that other fans don't subjectively see it. There's a concept in fan theory called meta text, which includes the text of the media work, all fan works about the media work, and all journalism about the media work. All of those come into play when we look at the original text, because we
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I really try to live and let live. I know I'm one of the few who doesn't ship Spike/Buffy, but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.
I know I'm one of the few who doesn't ship Spike/Buffy
The fact that you're even saying that hon is sort of a testament to how much certain shipping factions dominate the conversation isn't it? Unless you mean specifically "one of the few people in this convo thread..." and I'm not even sure of that unless we do a show of hands. *lol*
but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.The experience for me has ALWAYS been, regardless of the fandom, that I discover ships that other people love and write about that I had never considered. Shipping is not my primary lens as a viewer and consumer, so it doesn't occur to me until other people point things out. Willow and Spike? Oh, sure, why not? Willow and Angel? Thanks to fandom I can now pretty much ship Willow with anyone, male or female. Then eventually my own likes and dislikes slip in - Faith and Dawn, Buffy and Tara; but I need fandom to "prime the pump
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Exactly THIS.
And big YES to the love for kwritten's work , which is desperately needed in fandom IMO.
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Deleted my previous reply to this for something nicer: Yup. But nothing on the level of what you've experienced by any means.
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Gabrielle
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And it still needs to be said *le sigh*
Thanks for using the post-structuralist model, btw, as, believe it or not, that's something I've been looking at and pondering myself lately. (How I got there from looking at Yellowism and then Dogme 95 is a tale for another day... or maybe not. It's dull to anyone who isn't me.)
I'm sure I'd be fascinated by that - if I knew what everyone was talking about. (And I was the kid in school who was accused of using "long words" and was so smug about it. Karma's a bitch, indeed.)
This fandom is like going back to college for me. Everyone keep talking - I may not have a clue 99% of the time but I might pick up one or two tidbits along the way!
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This, exactly, was my point (I think - I didn't exactly have a clear thesis and I think I used some circular logic, but I think you nailed what I was going for!)
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Fans say "Thanks, Star Trek, for your masculinist narrative, but I'm going to ship Kirk/Spock and create my own narrative."
See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up. There is no romantic relationship between Kirk and Spock in the original work. You are free to fetishize those characters in your fan fiction or your sexual fantasies thus creating your own derived content but this is not the original work anymore.
we all over identify with our favoritesNo, we do not. You are projecting your own ( ... )
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Kirk/Spock was possibly not the best example. Yes, many shippers take characters that are not couples in canon and run away and write curtain fic (or PWP or whatever) and that's fine, no matter whether the writers are deliberately adding UST with a trowel, or whether the characters have barely met. However, many many ships are canon, and are indeed the backbone of the show/narrative in question. Take Doctor Who for example - when the show returned (in 2005) it was deliberately based around the Ninth Doctor/Rose relationship. The Eleventh Doctor goes on to marry River Song, and their story is at the heart of S6. Tony Stark/Pepper Potts is an ongoing storyline of the Iron Man movies. This is not 'personal derived content', it's show canon. You ( ... )
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I believe it was 8, but even the 'confirmation' was so oblique that there was another year of in-fighting before it was confirmed. And then it was basically the only thing the last film was about. :)
Is Mulder/Scully 'personal derived content'?
For years and years of fandom wars it was considered to be so. But... whahahahahaha! Shippers won.:D
Or how about Niles/Daphne on Frasier?
Peter and Olivia (Fringe), Aeryn and Crichton (Farscape), Mitchell and Annie (Being Human. Never shipped them, personally, but there were those who did). Apollo/Starbuck (Battlestar Galactica. Actually I HATED that ship but there were people who loved it), Hook/Emma shippers OUAT, etc.
I just get peeved over the concept that "shippers ruin fandom." There are plenty of angry fanboys/girls to ruin fandom over all sorts of crazified personal nitpicks. Fandom = fan wars. It's always something.
Reply
See, other fans are not interested in your own personal narrative because they are fans of the original work, not your personal derived content. Whenever you bring your personal narrative to a discussion about original work you simply make things up. Just because you can't see a homoerotic subtext in Star Trek, or Sherlock, or Supernatural, doesn't mean that other fans don't subjectively see it. There's a concept in fan theory called meta text, which includes the text of the media work, all fan works about the media work, and all journalism about the media work. All of those come into play when we look at the original text, because we ( ... )
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I really try to live and let live. I know I'm one of the few who doesn't ship Spike/Buffy, but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.
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The fact that you're even saying that hon is sort of a testament to how much certain shipping factions dominate the conversation isn't it? Unless you mean specifically "one of the few people in this convo thread..." and I'm not even sure of that unless we do a show of hands. *lol*
but I try to be open to it anyway and I will read certain Spuffy fics if they're done well.The experience for me has ALWAYS been, regardless of the fandom, that I discover ships that other people love and write about that I had never considered. Shipping is not my primary lens as a viewer and consumer, so it doesn't occur to me until other people point things out. Willow and Spike? Oh, sure, why not? Willow and Angel? Thanks to fandom I can now pretty much ship Willow with anyone, male or female. Then eventually my own likes and dislikes slip in - Faith and Dawn, Buffy and Tara; but I need fandom to "prime the pump ( ... )
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