I love you and your meta (especially about Ten and Eleven), please don't stop writing it :D
It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations.
And maybe, in the end, the fact that his death *is* his own choice after all is what sets him free and paves the way for Eleven...
I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation.
I love you and your meta (especially about Ten and Eleven), please don't stop writing it :D Aw, thank you. And I don't think I could stop, even if I wanted to...
It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations. Hmmm. *ponders* Certainly, it makes him look at things from a different perspective from then on, I'm sure.
I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation. *nods* And to quote Angel (the show): "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat."
Because Ten also feels quite entitled in a lot of ways. (IMHO) he feels that it is desperately unfair that he has to die - he's lost so much already (Rose, Joan, the Master, Jenny, River etc.) and does he also have to lose himself?
I love the comparison between John Smith/Ten, as well as DoctorDonna/mind-wiped Donna. Very insightful. To that point, this is a Time Lord on his 10th regeneration -- he knows exactly what it feels like to have gone from a previous self into a newer self and to have his personalities and quirks and tastes die and become something new over and over again.
I love the comparison between John Smith/Ten, as well as DoctorDonna/mind-wiped Donna. Very insightful. Thank you. :)
To that point, this is a Time Lord on his 10th regeneration -- he knows exactly what it feels like to have gone from a previous self into a newer self and to have his personalities and quirks and tastes die and become something new over and over again. *nods a lot* I wish I was more familiar with Old!Who, since the only other New!Who regeneration we have is Nine's and that is as different as can be. Esp, I think, because Nine has already made up his mind to die/sacrifice himself when Rose appears, so dying for her (after she saves the world) is not such a bad deal. Ten, as you say, knows what's coming and resists, having more than enough time to brood on all the drawbacks. (I love Eleven's conversation with Sarah Jane btw. and the ways in which he doesn't answer her questions about Ten.)
Esp, I think, because Nine has already made up his mind to die/sacrifice himself when Rose appears, so dying for her (after she saves the world) is not such a bad deal.
True true. Then you also have the s3 post-Rose "who cares, go ahead, kill me as long as it saves people" Ten. Like how he's willing to have his blood sucked without a backup plan in Smith & Jones -- and have it be only luck that Martha stumbled into the room and could revive him. Or of course "Kill me if it’ll stop you attacking these people! Then do it! Do it! Just do it! DOOO IIIIIIT!" in Evolution of the Daleks. I think after he loses Rose, he temporarily goes back to Nine's mindset because as he tells Lazarus, "I’m old enough to know that a longer life isn’t always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle. Tired of losing everyone that matters to you. Tried of watching everything turn to dust."
(Some people who dislike Rose vehemently, vehemently disagree with me on this lolol, oh well).
True true. Then you also have the s3 post-Rose "who cares, go ahead, kill me as long as it saves people" Ten. Oooh yes. He is reckless, bordering on suicidal for a lot of S3, and I think it's definitely because of Rose. Love her or loathe her, her importance to him is immense, since she's the first person he really connects to post-Time War. Plus, of course, she's willing to risk everything to be with him, and he dies for her... That's pretty powerful stuff. ("If I believe in anything, I believe in her!") Poor Ten...
I wandered over here yesterday from a link at who_daily, read your post and the comments and thought - "wow! I'll have to come back and re-read and comment when I can think of something substantive to say!"
And now I'm back - but just to say thank you for sharing your thoughts which make a lot of sense. I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that. But the idea that he's possibly the only Doctor who could liken regeneration to death hadn't occurred to me before; same with your comments about Donna's "death" and her "regeneration" as a different person.
I also found myself nodding at solitary_summer's comment about the ambiguity of Rusty's stories.
Anyway - thanks for sharing and for an interesting discussion.
And now I'm back - but just to say thank you for sharing your thoughts which make a lot of sense. Well thank you very much! :)
I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that. Oh yes. (You've read this meta I presume?) Also, I think that for all his suicidal tendencies, he didn't want to die. To quote one of my friends, because she puts it perfectly:
'It's a story about a point in my life where sometimes living seemed bleak and hopeless and impossibly hard. And often enough, at those times - and they were rare - I’d find myself standing on the bridge looking over the river, mesmerised, or sitting at my window looking three floors down to the ground. And never, ever with an intention to do - simply in acknowledgment of the thought. But I'd hate that the thought - the feeling - would be there. And then one
( ... )
Thanks for the links. I have read Jackoholic"'s post and I remember finding it at a time when I was so fed up with all the negativity I was seeing in posts and comments about Ten's "death". It was one of those times when I wondered what show everyone else had been watching!
I remember finding it at a time when I was so fed up with all the negativity I was seeing in posts and comments about Ten's "death". It was one of those times when I wondered what show everyone else had been watching! Oh do I know *that* feeling! (Which is why I tend to only read positive reviews. I can live without wanting to hit people over the head... Well, I don't mind fair criticism, but so often people just bash. *sigh*)
Lightbulb moments are always good ;-) They really are!
I hadn't thought of what happens to Donna in this light, but you're right. It's kind of the inverse of a Time Lord's regeneration, though - the Doctor gets a new body and personality, but keeps the knowledge and memories. Donna keeps her body and personality, but loses the knowledge and memories.
Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves.
I wonder if I had a choice between the two kinds of regeneration, which I would choose.
I hadn't thought of what happens to Donna in this light, but you're right. It's kind of the inverse of a Time Lord's regeneration, though - the Doctor gets a new body and personality, but keeps the knowledge and memories. Donna keeps her body and personality, but loses the knowledge and memories. Ah yes, that's very true.
Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves. No wonder Ten talks about it as a death...
(You might like my fic Donna's Choice btw. /random self-pimp)
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It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations.
And maybe, in the end, the fact that his death *is* his own choice after all is what sets him free and paves the way for Eleven...
I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation.
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Aw, thank you. And I don't think I could stop, even if I wanted to...
It is a VERY interesting observation that, perhaps Ten's very human reaction to death (and human-ness overall) might've had something to do with the fact that he WAS human, if only for a short time. It's something that sets Ten apart from his other incarnations.
Hmmm. *ponders* Certainly, it makes him look at things from a different perspective from then on, I'm sure.
I will forever believe this to be the case, it makes too much sense. Ten ultimately made the decision to sacrifice his life for a friend, so he became Eleven who would risk his life for others without any hesitation.
*nods* And to quote Angel (the show): "What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts - even if they no longer beat."
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Worrrrd.
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Thank you. :)
To that point, this is a Time Lord on his 10th regeneration -- he knows exactly what it feels like to have gone from a previous self into a newer self and to have his personalities and quirks and tastes die and become something new over and over again.
*nods a lot* I wish I was more familiar with Old!Who, since the only other New!Who regeneration we have is Nine's and that is as different as can be. Esp, I think, because Nine has already made up his mind to die/sacrifice himself when Rose appears, so dying for her (after she saves the world) is not such a bad deal. Ten, as you say, knows what's coming and resists, having more than enough time to brood on all the drawbacks. (I love Eleven's conversation with Sarah Jane btw. and the ways in which he doesn't answer her questions about Ten.)
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True true. Then you also have the s3 post-Rose "who cares, go ahead, kill me as long as it saves people" Ten. Like how he's willing to have his blood sucked without a backup plan in Smith & Jones -- and have it be only luck that Martha stumbled into the room and could revive him. Or of course "Kill me if it’ll stop you attacking these people! Then do it! Do it! Just do it! DOOO IIIIIIT!" in Evolution of the Daleks. I think after he loses Rose, he temporarily goes back to Nine's mindset because as he tells Lazarus, "I’m old enough to know that a longer life isn’t always a better one. In the end, you just get tired. Tired of the struggle. Tired of losing everyone that matters to you. Tried of watching everything turn to dust."
(Some people who dislike Rose vehemently, vehemently disagree with me on this lolol, oh well).
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Oooh yes. He is reckless, bordering on suicidal for a lot of S3, and I think it's definitely because of Rose. Love her or loathe her, her importance to him is immense, since she's the first person he really connects to post-Time War. Plus, of course, she's willing to risk everything to be with him, and he dies for her... That's pretty powerful stuff. ("If I believe in anything, I believe in her!") Poor Ten...
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And now I'm back - but just to say thank you for sharing your thoughts which make a lot of sense. I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that. But the idea that he's possibly the only Doctor who could liken regeneration to death hadn't occurred to me before; same with your comments about Donna's "death" and her "regeneration" as a different person.
I also found myself nodding at solitary_summer's comment about the ambiguity of Rusty's stories.
Anyway - thanks for sharing and for an interesting discussion.
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Well thank you very much! :)
I didn't have a problem with the manner of Ten's death - I didn't see his final words as "whiny" as some did, because I thought that here was a man who, despite all the crap that life had thrown at him, still wanted to live and IMO there's something desperately heroic about that.
Oh yes. (You've read this meta I presume?) Also, I think that for all his suicidal tendencies, he didn't want to die. To quote one of my friends, because she puts it perfectly:
'It's a story about a point in my life where sometimes living seemed bleak and hopeless and impossibly hard. And often enough, at those times - and they were rare - I’d find myself standing on the bridge looking over the river, mesmerised, or sitting at my window looking three floors down to the ground. And never, ever with an intention to do - simply in acknowledgment of the thought. But I'd hate that the thought - the feeling - would be there. And then one ( ... )
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Lightbulb moments are always good ;-)
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Oh do I know *that* feeling! (Which is why I tend to only read positive reviews. I can live without wanting to hit people over the head... Well, I don't mind fair criticism, but so often people just bash. *sigh*)
Lightbulb moments are always good ;-)
They really are!
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Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves.
I wonder if I had a choice between the two kinds of regeneration, which I would choose.
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Ah yes, that's very true.
Both remain in some fundamental way the same person, but destroy a fundamental part of themselves.
No wonder Ten talks about it as a death...
(You might like my fic Donna's Choice btw. /random self-pimp)
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