Thinking aloud with pictures...

[elisi]

Because we are watching one long, continuous story, and it's timey-wimey and told backwards, but also hugely dependent on what came before (i.e. Ten).

Comments

[owlsie]

Yeup. Series 5 too, since the story both begins and ends there. I remember thinking as far back as ToA/FaS, when Eleven starts talking about how time can be rewritten, "there are gonna be huge consequences for that, buddy".

Also Ten's crotch is glowing... tee hee /immature

[elisi]

Yeup. Series 5 too, since the story both begins and ends there. I remember thinking as far back as ToA/FaS, when Eleven starts talking about how time can be rewritten, "there are gonna be huge consequences for that, buddy".
Oh absolutely (just like Ten's downfall built up piece by piece). And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten' but also of 'What if time could run out?' (Darn Moffat is good.)

Also Ten's crotch is glowing... tee hee /immature
That's because he is radioactive! \o/

[cmattg]

And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten'

Actually it's not. I just rewatched the Library two-parter and guess what the Doctor says when he's trying to talk River out of zapping herself?

[elisi]

And ToA/FaS isn't just the first appearance of 'Time can be rewritten'
You know, I wrote that and there was something poking me at the back of my mind, but it was late and I was tired... Which isn't really a very good excuse, since I know the Library episodes pretty much by heart. Maybe I'm just meta'd out. ANYWAY, what I'm trying to say it: Thanks for the catch, and you're absolutely right. (I have for... a long time now said that EVERYTHING comes back to the Library. I don't mean that we'll actually re-visit it, just that Moffat laid out his vision there, and that it is too early, because it's a piece of Moffat-era stuck in S4...)

/rambling. Hope you don't mind.

[devohoneybee]

I like what you point out about Ten being alone with his death, where Eleven invites his bestest friends to be there with him. There's something about that that matters, very much, I suspect. He has to know they will try to change that point, no matter how "fixed" it appears to be. After all, he changed the entire universe for Rory and Amy. There is something about context and connection that may rightfully trump the laws of time. When he trusted Amy's memory and imagination to reboot the universe, he was giving primacy to *consciousness.* I'm really curious how that primacy will cycle back around, this time

[elisi]

The thing is, I don't know how things are going to be fixed. I mean... River could rewrite time, she's a Tiemlord too, she'd know how and all that - except River is by far the most mature, and the one who very deliberately says 'No, we can't do that', the one who will do as the Doctor tells them, because she knows that it's important. So for now, the importance of them being there, for now, for me, lies in a) the fact that he's not alone, and b) in his apology, since we now know how massively he screwed them all up. (I mean, they're OK, but still. Stolen babies turned into weapons. Not good.)

As for Ganger!Doctor then... Hm. I suspect the switch was mostly for Amy's benefit (wanting to teach her - and Rory - a lesson about how a Ganger could be a person through and through, which they'd need to know), and also - from a story perspective - to clue the Doctor onto the fact that he was going to die. The thing about Ganger!Doctor is that he can't regenerate, and much as I adore Matt Smith and want him to stay on FOREVER I can't imagine

[bendingwind]

Interesting that you should bring up the ganger Doctor's inability to regenerate (sorry for butting in here), because, well:

Doctor: OK, so, basically better regenerate, that's what you're saying?

Interface!Amelia: Regeneration disabled. You will be dead in 32 minutes.

We've also got the Doctor showing up in a new coat, rather similar to how the ganger!Doctor and the Doctor distinguished themselves via shoes earlier.

I'm still not 100% exactly who is who and what's going on where, but I think we're seeing some sort of bait-and-switch occur. The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).

[elisi]

The ganger is poisoned and then goes to die on the beach (?).
*shakes head firmly* Two reasons. 1) The Doctor on the beach is killed in the middle of regeneration, so it can't be the Ganger. 2) The Doctor on the beach is very clearly the one who has been through AGMGTW/LKH. Plus, you know, if it's Ganger!Doctor the whole thing is pointless. (I, uh, might have strong feelings about this... It's be like watching The Gift, and then discovering that it was BuffyBot who sacrificed herself.)

Anyway, there is SOMETHING going on, what with all the mirrors and everything. *pokes show and all the metaphors*

[penny_lane_42]

I'm so loving your idea about Moffat's run being a direct statement on RTD's. It reminds me of your theory about Seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy needing to be viewed as one whole. It makes everything come together so beautifully!

In this case, I think it would be easier to see the connection between Ten's actions and Eleven's story if we didn't know about all the production stuff--if you had no idea that one showrunner had left and another had taken over, you'd just assume this was one story instead of dividing it into chunks! And I think the one story is a much better one than the sum of its parts.

[elisi]

I'm so loving your idea about Moffat's run being a direct statement on RTD's. It reminds me of your theory about Seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy needing to be viewed as one whole. It makes everything come together so beautifully!
I can't really claim is as my own, since I have it from Moffat himself, talking about how the Doctor's reputation has gotten too big. I don't think he sees it as somehow taking down RTD Who (he and RTD like each other very much), but more he's trying to work out where to take the story next.

And I think the one story is a much better one than the sum of its parts.
Oh yes. Which is why I always love to stand back and view everything as a whole. A bit like Buffy - I might be a Spuffy 'shipper through and through, but I'd never deny the huge impact on her that Angel had.