Meta: The God Complex.

[elisi]

This week’s Doctor Who is without a doubt one of my favourite things ever. It was beautiful and heartbreaking and hit one of my major, major kinks and it also - miracles of miracles - treated religion with intelligence, rather than just steal some imagery and then sneer. Basically it was [metaphorically, and literally] 1 Corinthians 13, 11-12 in

Comments

[janie_aire]

Oh, you are brilliant and beautiful!

First, thank you so much for the Corinthians quote. Perfect, absolutely perfect, and I'm slapping myself upside the head for not grokking it earlier, 'cause that quote is repeated in Curse of Fenric, which also features the Doctor having to shake his Companion's faith in him. Yeesh, I'm getting old.

Which brings me to Rita... the thing about real faith is that it's not blind or unquestioning. If you want to base your life on something, any intelligent person wants to make sure that's it's a solid foundation and not just pretty words... Rita, although flattered and intrigued, rejects the Doctor, seeing him clearly for what he is. Rita is an adult, not ready to be drawn in by fairy tales when her life hangs in the balance.

And yet, it's Rita's mature faith that results in her demise, while Amy's childish faith is more easily shattered by the mirror of Truth. It's a clever inversion, for in the world of Doctor Who it's the Doctor who, however misguided, has a solid foundation.

The number of

[elisi]

Oh, you are brilliant and beautiful!
*blushes* It's definitely mutual - that comment of yours really helped illuminate a lot of stuff for me.

First, thank you so much for the Corinthians quote. Perfect, absolutely perfect, and I'm slapping myself upside the head for not grokking it earlier, 'cause that quote is repeated in Curse of Fenric, which also features the Doctor having to shake his Companion's faith in him. Yeesh, I'm getting old.
Huh. I thought you were deliberately referencing it, so I was going to congratulate you on being clever! :)

And yet, it's Rita's mature faith that results in her demise, while Amy's childish faith is more easily shattered by the mirror of Truth. It's a clever inversion, for in the world of Doctor Who it's the Doctor who, however misguided, has a solid foundation.
I've yet to really get my head around the fact that I can engage with the text on this issue, and not go 'lalalalalala' and move past in order not to get cross. (This is my method for dealing with RTD. It usually works, except for MD...)

[janie_aire]

And yet, it's Rita's mature faith that results in her demise, while Amy's childish faith is more easily shattered by the mirror of Truth. It's a clever inversion, for in the world of Doctor Who it's the Doctor who, however misguided, has a solid foundation.

I've yet to really get my head around the fact that I can engage with the text on this issue, and not go 'lalalalalala' and move past in order not to get cross. (This is my method for dealing with RTD. It usually works, except for MD...)

Not to get cross? :p

[elisi]

*points to icon*

[rahirah]

The problem I have with all this is that to me, the real signifier of Amy growing up and moving on would be her deciding to leave on her own, as Martha and many, many Old Who companions did. In kicking her out 'for her own good' the Doctor is being no less paternalistic and controlling than he was when he wanted her to adore him. And we're right back to the Doctor wallowing in emo manpain and refusing to admit that his companions have agency. I see this episode as a huge step backwards, not forwards.

[joking]

This is why I don't think Amy and Rory's eviction from the TARDIS is permanent. I don't think they can just immediately adjust back to normal life because the Doctor decided they should. They'll be back next season.

[owlsie]

Well he said himself he'd be back. It's not the end of the Ponds, just the end of Amy's unhealthy childhood dependance on the Doctor. And I think it's good that he took responsibility for that, because he created it in the first place.

[rahirah]

Could be. No spoilers, just speculation, but I think they have to come back to wrap up the Doctor's death plotline. But if that's so, then I think there's even less justification for seeing this as the Doctor really learning something and putting it into practice. The chance for him to do that was in the previous episode, where he could have admitted there were things he couldn't and shouldn't fix, and saved middle-aged, angry Amy instead of her starry-eyed younger counterpart.

[owlsie]

>>Matt once said that his Doctor was addicted to time travel

cuz it's all he has. :( Maybe he should get a hobby, like knitting or soduku.

I wish I had thoughts, but my brain is fried today. all I can manage is "yay meta good"

[elisi]

cuz it's all he has. :( Maybe he should get a hobby, like knitting or soduku.
Knitting or bi-plane, was it? Ahem. Yes, he keeps running, because it's all he has and all he knows.

I wish I had thoughts, but my brain is fried today. all I can manage is "yay meta good"
Yay meta good is very good! :)

[promethia_tenk]

kaffyr, earlier this week, described you as running a salon, and I can only agree with the accuracy of this statement : ) Beautiful as always *squishes*

[elisi]

A Meta Salon? I suppose I am. Never thought about it like that, just that I'm overly wordy. ;) Oh and thank you. *squishes you back* Really, really couldn't do this without you!

Oh my goodness I am SO HAPPY the show is over soon, I DO NOT have time for this... /o\

[janie_aire]

Yay! for meta salon.

And good Goddess yes, this is taking *all* of my time! And thought. And dreamspace.

[elisi]

Meta salon. Might do something with that... *ponders*

And I have all of this taking up my mind, plus several fics. And, you know, RL stuff which is complicated and somewhat difficult. (That's one reason I'm so deliberately positive. This is my place to get away from things, I've not got time for stuff that'll give me more grief. It's TV! Also this place is pretty. *points to icon*)

[indy1776]

This episode was all about growing up and putting aside childish things. About seeing things for what they really are. About examining faith and whether it is true or misplaced.

I need to rewatch the episode again with this in mind. I didn’t miss it the first time, but it wasn’t the lens I watched it through. (I watched it through “the Doctor’s journey of deconstruction”-- it’s my default mode for S6.)

I think we can probably blame this faith/attitude for the lack of talk about Melody since LKH.

Yes! She trusts he’ll fix it. After all, he helped bring her parents-- and a non-plastic Rory-- back for her, returned twice (thus breaking her a bit more and reinforcing her faith at the same time), helped her find herself, vindicated her belief in him at her wedding (by proving to everyone there that he did, in fact, exist), and a bunch of little things

[elisi]

I need to rewatch the episode again with this in mind. I didn’t miss it the first time, but it wasn’t the lens I watched it through. (I watched it through “the Doctor’s journey of deconstruction”-- it’s my default mode for S6.)
There are many ways of watching it...

Yes! She trusts he’ll fix it. After all, he helped bring her parents-- and a non-plastic Rory-- back for her, returned twice (thus breaking her a bit more and reinforcing her faith at the same time), helped her find herself, vindicated her belief in him at her wedding (by proving to everyone there that he did, in fact, exist), and a bunch of little things.
*nods a lot*

But I don’t think he will fix things, at least in the sense of getting baby!Melody back. But then, I compared the LKH situation to kids leaving the house for university or whatnot and thus is normal (just possibly accelerated), so I obviously don’t have a problem with it as it stands.
I think if they get her back, it won't be because of the Doctor, but because of Amy.

But he believed that someone would

[indy1776]

There are many ways of watching it...

Yup. But faith isn't a mode I go into naturally. (Which may be why a lot of people are saying Amy's messed up, but I go: "But she trusts the Doctor, because he has fixed things for her." Faith, to me, is slightly different than trust.)

The Doctor saves even the fish [metaphor: fish are people] - Gibbis eats them.

Ooh-- that's interesting!

As you point out so beautifully, it's just like Barbara

Not Barbara (she and Ian stay for another six serials-- and return to Earth two years after they'd left), but Susan. The first person the Doctor kicks out of the TARDIS is his own granddaughter. Another parallel with Amy, given how paternal/avuncular their relationship is.

except this time he takes the time to explain himself and gets Amy's assent that now is the time.

Yes-- and that makes such a big difference.

[elisi]

Yup. But faith isn't a mode I go into naturally. (Which may be why a lot of people are saying Amy's messed up, but I go: "But she trusts the Doctor, because he has fixed things for her." Faith, to me, is slightly different than trust.)
That is a very good point.

Ooh-- that's interesting!
<><

Not Barbara (she and Ian stay for another six serials-- and return to Earth two years after they'd left), but Susan.
*headdesk repeatedly* I meant Susan. (Looooong day. Long long day...)

The first person the Doctor kicks out of the TARDIS is his own granddaughter. Another parallel with Amy, given how paternal/avuncular their relationship is.
*nods a lot* It's been the same problem since the beginning: How to leave behind Companions who don't want to leave, and whom the Doctor wants to keep.

Yes-- and that makes such a big difference.
Plus she has both her shoes! ;)