DW 9.05. The Girl Who Died

[elisi]

Sorry this is so late, and scattered/basic. But it’s been a busy week... Mostly I'm just skimming the surface, picking out the main things I can see, without delving below in any kind of detail.

OTOH then Vikings/Norse mythology is stuff I am good with. (Nordic girl here.)

Comments

[a_phoenixdragon]

'But here I'm loved' puts me in a mind that elsewhere she wasn't. Not that she surmised she wouldn't be. Or that she SAW she wouldn't be. She knew for a fact that she wasn't because she had experienced that

[elisi]

'But here I'm loved' puts me in a mind that elsewhere she wasn't. Not that she surmised she wouldn't be. Or that she SAW she wouldn't be. She knew for a fact that she wasn't because she had experienced that.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought of it in that light.

Actually, Clara has claimed to be him twice during Twelve's Era at least. Flippantly, the first time. But I notice he didn't correct her.
... I'm pretty sure he said 'Oh no you didn't!' ;)

Being in his Time-stream, she does somewhat qualify AS the Doctor. And she has definitely mirrored him and seen through his eyes. She has always been his ghost. But it was only after she made that observation that she fully became one, even as she never fully disappeared.
Yeah, there's... A lot of fuzzy edges around her. (If you know what I mean?)

I love the crazy/inexplicable of this show. a lot of people don't, but I feel if it doesn't do that, it is taking itself too seriously and it changes the way the show FEELS. The hardcore science, mixed psuedo, mixed with the out-right SILLY gives this

[beer_good_foamy]

Misplaced electric eels or no (I'm still not sure if the people at BBC think there are electric eels in Scandinavia, or if they just think all eels are electric), this was a really good episode, but your analysis adds even more too it. I hadn't caught on to the Osgood=Asgautr thing (partly because I was too annoyed at them consistently mispronouncing "Ashildr" as "Ash-ildur"). Still, best viking episode since "Selfless".

Tell a different story that's how you win.

ETA: Reading "Osgood" as "creator of gods" and meshing it with "The Big Bang", there's something to be said for storytellers as being the source of gods. ETA2: And traditionally, the way you become a god is, step 1: Come back from the dead.

The Davros-Odin parallel is brilliant, too - though Davros was never the wisest of creator gods, was he? ETA 2: Of course, Odin ended up being mostly displaced by his loud, boisterous, smash-everything-that-moves son

[beer_good_foamy]

ETA3 or something: Looking over the transcript, the word "face" is all over the story, both in dialogue and imagery, in fake Odin's projection...
On my face, right now, more advanced technology than your species will manage over the next nine million years.
The joy of war! Can't you see it on my face?
Turn your face towards me, Mother, for you're beautiful.
Hey, hello, hi! I'm the Doctor. It's lovely to meet you face to, er, convincing hologram.
I know where I got this face, and I know what it's for.

The big reveal, apparently, being the Doctor realising why he took on this particular face. But Ashildr defeats the aliens by literally putting on one of their faces. There's some very sneaky religious imagery in this, the face of God being both horrible and wondrous, always the same and ever changing... But of course, anyone who thinks they can act like a god may come across as a bit of an as. (Sorry.)

[elisi]

ETA3 or something: Looking over the transcript, the word "face" is all over the story, both in dialogue and imagery, in fake Odin's projection...
Interdasting.

The big reveal, apparently, being the Doctor realising why he took on this particular face. But Ashildr defeats the aliens by literally putting on one of their faces.
And seeing/eyes/perception is also a big thing (that I hardly touched on...) She puts on their face, but she also makes them see through her eyes. It's a two-way thing.

There's some very sneaky religious imagery in this, the face of God being both horrible and wondrous, always the same and ever changing...
Hmmm. I shall ponder. Thank you. I like how your mind works. (Although I'm sure you knew that!)

But of course, anyone who thinks they can act like a god may come across as a bit of an as. (Sorry.)
*dies* I LIKE PUNNING!

[elisi]

Misplaced electric eels or no (I'm still not sure if the people at BBC think there are electric eels in Scandinavia, or if they just think all eels are electric)
They needed electric eels for the sake of the plot. Ergo there were electric eels.

this was a really good episode, but your analysis adds even more too it.
♥

I hadn't caught on to the Osgood=Asgautr thing
I kept meaning to look up her name, but never got round to it. UNTIL NOW.

(partly because I was too annoyed at them consistently mispronouncing "Ashildr" as "Ash-ildur").
I never worked out what her name was until I looked it up afterwards. I still read it differently to what they say. BUT WHAT CAN YOU DO!

Still, best viking episode since "Selfless".
True.

ETA: Reading "Osgood" as "creator of gods" and meshing it with "The Big Bang", there's something to be said for storytellers as being the source of gods.
I'm not sure exactly how the 'creator' part works, I *think* it's more 'a god who creates', but the other reading certainly fits Osgood better.

ETA2: And

[purplefringe]

I haven't watched The Woman Who Lived yet (was being *sociable* again, sigh) but before I do I just wanted to say:

a) Ahahahaha I LOVED the Pythonesque joy of this ep! Nearly fell out of my beanbag with glee when 'Odin' showed up like that. What a delight! :-D I loved the whole ep.

b) Good spot with Clara-as-Hanged-Man again! V nice.

c) I TOTALLY CALLED THE POMPEII THING I'M SO HAPPY!!! I shrieked. I KNEW that was the reason he had that face all of last season, and I knew (or hoped) it was going to come up this episode from the moment we saw him looking at his reflection in the water again. SO HAPPY!

Ok, off to watch the next ep now! (yes I know it's 12:30, shhhh)

[elisi]

I haven't watched The Woman Who Lived yet (was being *sociable* again, sigh)
Well, it's worth waiting for!

a) Ahahahaha I LOVED the Pythonesque joy of this ep! Nearly fell out of my beanbag with glee when 'Odin' showed up like that. What a delight! :-D I loved the whole ep.
It was 100% Doctor Who done right. :)

b) Good spot with Clara-as-Hanged-Man again! V nice.
I owe that one to Promethia.

c) I TOTALLY CALLED THE POMPEII THING I'M SO HAPPY!!! I shrieked. I KNEW that was the reason he had that face all of last season, and I knew (or hoped) it was going to come up this episode from the moment we saw him looking at his reflection in the water again. SO HAPPY!
\o/ I know others called it too. (Guess the Doctor never heard about Frobisher...)

Ok, off to watch the next ep now! (yes I know it's 12:30, shhhh)
I love everything. <3

Respectfully disagreeing about 12's mistake

[anonymous]

I will agree with (and partly quote) Tv Tropes on this one. Of course what the Doctor did should not be taken lightly, and he acknowledges this, and that is good.
However, one must stress that in contrast with "The Waters of Mars", the stakes aren't as high, Ashildr's life or death is not a fixed point, the Doctor doesn’t know anything about her. If he had simply revived her with no reprecussions, nobody would or could call it hubris.

And as I think is evident through his epiphany, his words and his actions, it’s the difference between “Screw the Rules, I Make Them!”, and “Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right” (TWOM- TGWD):
He isn’t trying to rewrite fate but fight fate. He doesn't want to be (he knows better than that now), he's not being a god who chooses who's important and who isn't, but fighting, willing to defy the gods who would not see the inherent preciousness of a single young life that might be saved

Re: Respectfully disagreeing about 12's mistake

[elisi]

However, one must stress that in contrast with "The Waters of Mars", the stakes aren't as high, Ashildr's life or death is not a fixed point, the Doctor doesn’t know anything about her. If he had simply revived her with no reprecussions, nobody would or could call it hubris.
You are absolutely right, it's not a fixed point. And re. hubris, then originally it was the only thing that sprang to mind when I was watching the trailers, so I keep it in mind. A Ten-and-Rose-in-S2-vibe. As for the Doctor's actions here, then I shall wait and see what your opinion is on this matter after you've seen The Woman Who Lived. (Hopefully that post should be up sooner than this one!) Please don't post spoilers here, I'm trying to keep posts (and my thoughts) separate! ;)

He isn’t trying to rewrite fate but fight fate. He doesn't want to be (he knows better than that now), he's not being a god who chooses who's important and who isn't, but fighting, willing to defy the gods who would not see the inherent preciousness of a single young life that might

Re: Respectfully disagreeing about 12's mistake

[anonymous]

As for the Doctor's actions here, then I shall wait and see what your opinion is on this matter after you've seen The Woman Who Lived.
Already seen it, but I’ll be there ;)

Ah, but is it 'right' to make someone immortal?
Well, he himself is like “I fucked up, I wasn’t thinking”.

He's not saving her, he's making her something other than human, someone almost like himself (because the Doctor isn't actually immortal.) Actually, both this episode and the next (which is why I’ll explain this in detail in your next post if you want), draw many parallels between her and the Doctor; and also, some pieces of dialogue seem to indicate that we are not talking about complete, *infinite* immortality, it’s more that Ashildr is extremely “durable” let’s say, and ageless. Therefore, I think she *can* die, be killed at some point

Re: Respectfully disagreeing about 12's mistake

[elisi]

But yeah, it still *is* unnatural obviously, it would be if he made an ordinary human into something “like himself” too as you put it, because humans are not meant to be like that, they are not built to deal with it.
The episode does a good job at looking at it (as you will know) and I deal with it in my meta - so I shall let it go for now. :)

one shouldn’t really see the two as equal incidents; because like you said too, purest of motives, and completely different circumstances (no fixed point -which are BAD, NO TOUCH etc).
I quote this line (from Voyage of the Damned) in my next meta:

COPPER: Of all the people to survive, he's not the one you would have chosen, is he? But if you could choose, Doctor, if you decide who lives and who dies, that would make you a monster.

But he’s like “well, since *you* don’t, I’ll have fun, and prove it to you too in the process, by enormously exploiting your mindset and making you suffer, heh he he”. (I’ll elaborate if you want). I think you have described *Moffat's* mindset, not Davros'. And no

[juniperphoenix]

Terrific stuff, as usual. I always like the episodes more after reading your meta about them (even if I already liked them a lot to begin with, which has generally been the case so far in S9).

[elisi]

Thank you! :) And that's a wonderful compliment. (And exactly what I aim for, I think. To make people appreciate things more!)