Must dash to school, but had to say great post about Mary! I too love her to bits and am so fascinated with her character in a way I haven't been with any other female character, either in books or tv. Right now, the show is teetering on the edge of doing Mary and female characterisation in general a grave disservice. Totally agree. However, the show is catering to a broad audience and money always rules in entertainment, so I can see why the show is going this way ;)
However, the show is catering to a broad audience and money always rules in entertainment, so I can see why the show is going this way
But it really doesn't need to! Sybil is there to provide a sympathetically rebellious character. Anna is there to be a romantic. Ethel is there to be feisty. Mary doesn't need to be shoe-horned and she wasn't in S01. And it was on the basis of S01 that everyone was looking forward to her development in S02. I wonder if they'll look forward to her development in S03 in quite the same way?
But Mary is Matthew's romantic interest--and thereby, the chief female character in the show. So unless audiences were captured by her enough, the show wouldn't make enough bucks!?
I think Mary fans were the ones looking for her development. Those who didn't like her in S1 didn't really care about what she would do in S2. So people who had a luke-warm interest in her or in S1 (on in the whole series really) could enjoy seeing a new Mary in S2 and not feel like they were missing out on anything.
Well, having made audiences feel so sympathetic towards Mary, I am sure the powers that be expect audiences to look forward to her development in S3. S3 needs to sell too!
Sorry for the missive... :peolivetOctober 12 2011, 13:45:19 UTC
Awesome post, per usual. I actually think this starts with the idea that Mary put her life on "pause" for two years at the beginning of S2.
Seriously. What WAS she doing? She didn't marry. She ONLY mentions Carlisle AFTER Edith mentions Matthew's engagement. What happened when M/C "met at Clifton?" Was she seriously considering him? Has Mary had a dozen suitors and turned them all down? Did she walk around in a daze?
Two years is a LONG TIME. Long enough for Matthew (whose feelings for Mary I've NEVER questioned) to get engaged! I get Mary's older now, but she's still stunningly beautiful! However, simply by making Mary unattached, JF was begging for this to happen
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Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 12 2011, 14:23:13 UTC
Interesting... I do agree that Fellowes is caught in a corner a bit, he HAS to have something to keep M/M apart, it can't just be their stubborness.
I just wish Mary and Matthew had more stories away from each other.
Actually, up until now, I've really liked the whole show and M/M and all their interactions. I'm just really worried what the future will bring - I think DA my just fall down the wrong side of the good story vs ridiculous edge
Re: Sorry for the missive... :peolivetOctober 12 2011, 14:55:21 UTC
The problem with M/M having more stories away from each other is...they aren't the "main characters." DA is an ensemble show, so everyone needs screentime. :p Matthew at least has "the war" -- but if you think about how many new characters have been added this season (Lavinia, Carlisle, Vera, Ethel, Lang) as well as the more "minor" characters who have more prominent storylines (Branson, Moseley, Dr. Clarkson)...screentime is at a premium. In a way, it makes perfect sense that L/C haven't been developed -- there's been no time! :p
As for DA turning ridiculous...well, this is the show that had a perfectly healthy man die during sex, and a late-in-life pregnancy ended on a bar of soap. :/ I'd say whatever soapy path they take...they crossed that line a LONG time ago... ;)
Re: Sorry for the missive... :psilverducksOctober 12 2011, 14:59:40 UTC
Yeah, I agree about the lack of time, but it would still have been nice (but then, IMO they should just cut out all the Anna/Bates and put other stories there instead :-) )
TBH, considering time frame, I actually think they do a good enough job on Lavinia and Carlisle.
As for being ridiculous, I could forgive the Pamuk and soap incident, but this one just feels too much! Especially as I just know the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia fallout will make me want to pull my hair out in frustration and be too melodramatic!
I'm afraid I don't really have anything to reply to here because I completely agree with you! (Who are we and what have we done with Laura and Rose?!) :P
I wouldn't mind seeing some more of spunky, pretending to be heartless Mary, but I know that part of her is still there.
Yes, me too! That was one of the main things that drew me to Mary in S01 and while I would love her regardless, I do miss her. Having actually just re-watched S01 and S02 again back to back, I have to say that it all seems much smoother - more of S02!Mary in S01 and more of S01!Mary in S02, but still...
I love DA and I know it can be soap opearish at times, but I think it's going too far into that world now and quite frankly, if it continues, I may actually give up watching. I love DA, but I don't watch soap operas for a very good reason.I can't imagine giving up watching, just as I couldn't stop reading HP even when I found the books increasingly badly edited and plotted, because I am dedicated to the fandom and the characters, but I can foresee getting much
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Overlong replyduckface666October 12 2011, 14:32:20 UTC
As someone who has studied both film and literature and of this period too I think that she, along with other characters in the series DO buck the trend of how their roles are being presented
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Oh and I don’t know if you want to talk about it elsewhere but I’ll avoid getting into my issues with River Song and the presentation of women in Doctor Who as a whole because I’d be here for a very long time if I was. Suffice to say that lizard woman who seems to be having an affair with her maid is the closest thing we get to a well-rounded, non-offensive of the grounds of what she represents female character. And she’s a fricking lizard. But then I have a long-standing problem with New!Who when it comes to women and think all of the women who aren’t Harriet Jones and might as well have allegorical names rather than actual ones are best left alone less they get my blood pressure up.
Re: Overlong replyepea_pteroentaOctober 14 2011, 14:47:03 UTC
re your first paragraph (to avoid quoting entire chunks), this is a really interesting point and one that has sort of floated on the edge of my consciousness! I think you're completely right and it was something I think I tried to get at ages ago in a forums post about M/M being gender reversed from expectations. Because arrogant, mean aristocratic man/nice, sweet middle class woman is a much more common trope. I also think the genre expectations of Mary might contribute to my strong desire to ship her with Carlisle. It would make sense - it's what you'd expect. Actually, I remember watching the very first episode and explicitly thinking that either Mary is going to marry the Duke and therefore get out of her bad situation (probably with their courtship lasting longer than one ep and revolving round issues of her not being as rich as he thinks etc. etc.) and have some other role in the plot, or she would have to end up with the new heir after lots of complications - this being before Matthew's name was mentioned. Well, by the end of
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Right now, the show is teetering on the edge of doing Mary and female characterisation in general a grave disservice.
Totally agree. However, the show is catering to a broad audience and money always rules in entertainment, so I can see why the show is going this way ;)
Reply
But it really doesn't need to! Sybil is there to provide a sympathetically rebellious character. Anna is there to be a romantic. Ethel is there to be feisty. Mary doesn't need to be shoe-horned and she wasn't in S01. And it was on the basis of S01 that everyone was looking forward to her development in S02. I wonder if they'll look forward to her development in S03 in quite the same way?
Reply
I think Mary fans were the ones looking for her development. Those who didn't like her in S1 didn't really care about what she would do in S2. So people who had a luke-warm interest in her or in S1 (on in the whole series really) could enjoy seeing a new Mary in S2 and not feel like they were missing out on anything.
Well, having made audiences feel so sympathetic towards Mary, I am sure the powers that be expect audiences to look forward to her development in S3. S3 needs to sell too!
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It didn't NEED to make Mary popular to the masses to continue it's success! It was doing fine before!
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Seriously. What WAS she doing? She didn't marry. She ONLY mentions Carlisle AFTER Edith mentions Matthew's engagement. What happened when M/C "met at Clifton?" Was she seriously considering him? Has Mary had a dozen suitors and turned them all down? Did she walk around in a daze?
Two years is a LONG TIME. Long enough for Matthew (whose feelings for Mary I've NEVER questioned) to get engaged! I get Mary's older now, but she's still stunningly beautiful! However, simply by making Mary unattached, JF was begging for this to happen ( ... )
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I just wish Mary and Matthew had more stories away from each other.
Actually, up until now, I've really liked the whole show and M/M and all their interactions. I'm just really worried what the future will bring - I think DA my just fall down the wrong side of the good story vs ridiculous edge
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As for DA turning ridiculous...well, this is the show that had a perfectly healthy man die during sex, and a late-in-life pregnancy ended on a bar of soap. :/ I'd say whatever soapy path they take...they crossed that line a LONG time ago... ;)
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TBH, considering time frame, I actually think they do a good enough job on Lavinia and Carlisle.
As for being ridiculous, I could forgive the Pamuk and soap incident, but this one just feels too much! Especially as I just know the Mary/Matthew/Lavinia fallout will make me want to pull my hair out in frustration and be too melodramatic!
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I wouldn't mind seeing some more of spunky, pretending to be heartless Mary, but I know that part of her is still there.
Yes, me too! That was one of the main things that drew me to Mary in S01 and while I would love her regardless, I do miss her. Having actually just re-watched S01 and S02 again back to back, I have to say that it all seems much smoother - more of S02!Mary in S01 and more of S01!Mary in S02, but still...
I love DA and I know it can be soap opearish at times, but I think it's going too far into that world now and quite frankly, if it continues, I may actually give up watching. I love DA, but I don't watch soap operas for a very good reason.I can't imagine giving up watching, just as I couldn't stop reading HP even when I found the books increasingly badly edited and plotted, because I am dedicated to the fandom and the characters, but I can foresee getting much ( ... )
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