At first, I really didn't like Fanny at all. She was just .... there and everything happened to her. But I've warmed up to her a bit more in the past few chapters. I see that she's really struggling with what's happening around her and that struggle has, in some weird way, made her less a victim. I see that she's growing up. I think she's realizing that Edmund isn't infallible and starting to have faith in her own judgements.
I've never liked Fanny - I joined this community in part to try to reconcile my feelings about Fanny and about the book. I think I'm getting won over to the book, bit by bit. And maybe Fanny too
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Re: Mary and FannyverrucariaAugust 9 2007, 20:29:50 UTC
How close is this parallel?
I can't guess to know whether Austen intended this parallel (or the nature vs. nurture thing), but it's nonetheless a good point in my opinion. They both certainly had been exposed to interesting family life!
I've also been finding Fanny annoyingly passive. Sure, I felt bad that she was reminded every day that she was the poor relation, but that didn't actually make her an interesting character (a lot of the time, she didn't even seem to mind it!). I'm glad that the recent chapters show some development of personality on her part.
Re: Mary and Fanny - slight spoileroutofivanhoeAugust 10 2007, 19:57:14 UTC
Slight spoiler for reference to future chapters... I'm not sure to what extent Fanny's character is just down to her 'nurture' in her uncle's household- I'm struggling to cast my mind back to the other time I read the book, but when Fanny visits her own family don't we get the impression she was always on the shy, passive side?
But it is true Austen seems to be making a major point about the effects of upbringing and good/bad parenting (or guardianship, I suppose), particularly as it relates to girls. Julia and Maria's various failings are often put down to their doting mother and aunt and distant father.
Heh, and in this way Edmund definitely shows up as a father figure for Fanny- her achievements or attitudes are at times attributed to him (she even does it herself, I believe?).
Re: Mary and Fanny - slight spoiler x2cheshire_cAugust 11 2007, 02:22:45 UTC
When I look at the similarities between Mary and Fanny, although there are similarities between their experiences, I can't help but notice that the biggest difference seems to be that the former is focused inward, on herself, while the latter is focused on what's (and who's) outside of her. My favorite demonstration of this is (of course) further on in the book (chapter 22), when the two are sitting in the shrubbery and Mary makes the remark about "the Doge at the court of Louis XIV". (I shall say no more at this time; wouldn't want to spoil anything!)
Another good example is when Mary's learning to ride on Fanny's horse, and she remarks on how she knew she was being selfish in riding longer and was depriving Fanny of her exercise, and was "behaving extremely ill". She then says, "Selfishness must always be forgiven you know, because there is no hope of a cure." I'm sure she meant to be clever, but it very clearly shows her self-interest. (Chapter 7)
I find it interesting that Fanny, who is so painfully shy and passive, yet has this absolute moral centre. If it is merely a severe inconvenience to herself, she will do something - walk miles inthe sun to suit her aunt's convenience, say. If she judges it wrong, she won't - no power on earth could cause her to act in the play because she thought it morally wrong of her to do so.
I would love to know where her moral certainty comes from - the authority figures she is surrounded by are tyrannical, arbitrary, idle or self interested. Religion? Faith? Art? What is it that lets her know she is right?
I find this quite interesting too. In the latter chapters, Fanny's position of "standing firm" is really quite the opposite of passivity -- she is resisting pressure brought to bear on her from all sides. Where did that strength come from in a woman trained from early childhood to try to please everyone in the house
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I'm currently reading novels which happened to be Austen's favourites, such as Burney's Evelina and Edgeworth's Belinda, and they're certainly strong on their virtuous, and often rather passive, heroines.
Edmund's influenceoutofivanhoeAugust 10 2007, 20:22:58 UTC
Just a thought I had while commenting above: to what extent are the other members of the family aware of Edmund's influence on her opinions and attitudes? While what he thinks is very important to Fanny, and she sides with him in, oh, just about everything (ie. his conversation about the clergy with Mary), no-one alludes to it, as far as I remember. Would they realise at the time of the play that she would share his views as to its immorality
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Re: Edmund's influencefeechAugust 10 2007, 20:45:49 UTC
"I suppose my own view would be that none of the other family members pay enough attention to her to notice Edmund's influence, and possibly also don't even credit her with having any opinions to resemble Edmund's. She is like furniture. I think if anyone was to notice, Mrs Norris would be a bit more alert to the disastrous possibility of Fanny's crush on Edmund, and would go to more pains to nip it in the bud."
Re: Edmund's influencecheshire_cAugust 11 2007, 02:05:19 UTC
I agree that the family in general don't notice much about Fanny besides whether she's helping them in their own goals. Everyone's gone to such trouble to raise these children with the awareness that they are on entirely different levels, beginning all the way back in chapter 1:
"'There will be some difficulty in our way, Mrs. Norris,' observed Sir Thomas, 'as to the distinction proper to be made between the girls as they grow up; how to preserve in the minds of my daughters the consciousness of what they are, without making them think too lowly of their cousin; and how, without depressing her spirits too far, to make her remember that she is not a Miss Bertram....[T]hey cannot be equals. their rank, fortune, rights, and expectations, will always be different
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Re: Edmund's influenceelettariaAugust 11 2007, 09:39:30 UTC
But they do consider the match, right in Chapter 1 when Mrs Norris proposes taking Fanny in. It's almost immediately dismissed as not going to happen because they'll grow up together as brother and sister. Add that to the Fanny-as-furniture problem, not to mention that Fanny is extremely reserved, and it's not surprising that no one in her family picks up on her crush on Edmund. Mary Crawford does pick up on it, but she's a lot more observant, she's looking at things as an outsider so she has a fresh view (as opposed to being used to Fanny's being in the background), and she's Fanny's rival for Edmund's affections so she's bound to take more of an interest.
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I can't guess to know whether Austen intended this parallel (or the nature vs. nurture thing), but it's nonetheless a good point in my opinion. They both certainly had been exposed to interesting family life!
I've also been finding Fanny annoyingly passive. Sure, I felt bad that she was reminded every day that she was the poor relation, but that didn't actually make her an interesting character (a lot of the time, she didn't even seem to mind it!). I'm glad that the recent chapters show some development of personality on her part.
Reply
But it is true Austen seems to be making a major point about the effects of upbringing and good/bad parenting (or guardianship, I suppose), particularly as it relates to girls. Julia and Maria's various failings are often put down to their doting mother and aunt and distant father.
Heh, and in this way Edmund definitely shows up as a father figure for Fanny- her achievements or attitudes are at times attributed to him (she even does it herself, I believe?).
Reply
Another good example is when Mary's learning to ride on Fanny's horse, and she remarks on how she knew she was being selfish in riding longer and was depriving Fanny of her exercise, and was "behaving extremely ill". She then says, "Selfishness must always be forgiven you know, because there is no hope of a cure." I'm sure she meant to be clever, but it very clearly shows her self-interest. (Chapter 7)
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I would love to know where her moral certainty comes from - the authority figures she is surrounded by are tyrannical, arbitrary, idle or self interested. Religion? Faith? Art? What is it that lets her know she is right?
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Agreed!
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"'There will be some difficulty in our way, Mrs. Norris,' observed Sir Thomas, 'as to the distinction proper to be made between the girls as they grow up; how to preserve in the minds of my daughters the consciousness of what they are, without making them think too lowly of their cousin; and how, without depressing her spirits too far, to make her remember that she is not a Miss Bertram....[T]hey cannot be equals. their rank, fortune, rights, and expectations, will always be different ( ... )
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