I need to focus.

[evelynne]

I'm not doing a good job of keeping up here. In the last few days, that's been mainly because I keep wasting my free time reading different perspectives on the Aziz Ansari thing, picking it apart and thinking about how Aziz could have behaved better (I don't believe it was assault, but he was really annoyingly pushy) AND how the girl could have

Comments

[gwendally]

We got through the "no means no" message, and Asiz knows that one. He made it that far.

But that's only half the distance. We need to make sure everyone now understands that the default isn't "yes" if you don't say "no". The default is no unless you say "hell, yes!".

Enthusiatic consent is the model that will save us. Ask a co-worker peer out and she doesn't say "hell, yes!"? It's a no. Never ask again. Workplace harrassment solved. Accidental date rape, solved.

[evelynne]

Yeah, I like the new "yes means yes" slogan. It seems like it's really, really not that hard to occasionally ask, "Is this okay?" occasionally and make sure you get a yes. Or just say "yes" a lot every time something feels good! But there seem to be people at the margins who can't even make that work, and that's what I've been thinking about. Teenagers who are too stupid yet to be appropriately verbal. Women who acquiesce because they're trying to make the guy happy, not because they genuinely want sex. People who like to get "carried away" and talking about sex ruins it for them. Women who were instilled with a complex that being a "slut" is bad so they actually do want to be persuaded. People who are quiet and not expressive. I guess they're gonna have to learn to be expressive or they're never gonna get laid under this new model. :P

[comeseptember]

The key to "yes means yes" succeeding is for the asker to exhibit genuine care in asking, so as to make the askee feel safe enough to respond honestly, and then to listen sincerely to the answer and respect whatever it is without question. If these two conditions aren't met, then the whole thing veers right up next to "no means try harder

[evelynne]

This is very similar to what Kit and I were talking about last night -- she said the same thing about Aziz being the kind of person who would learn from the experience

[sweet_jane]

The instructional porn videos idea is really good. We already know porn influences our expectations around sex, but not always in a healthy way. Can we get people with awesome relational skills to start making porn?

[evelynne]

That would be AWESOME. They need to get on it! Although honestly, I think it would just be helpful to have a bit of a simple script for people to follow -- giving people words to practice if they're not good at thinking them up on the fly -- and it would just be much more impactful if it were accompanied by people having enthusiastic consensual sex at the time. I mean, think how hot it can be to say "Is this okay?" "Yes" just based entirely on the delivery of the "Yes". :)

[againstathorn]

Men need to not only understand that "No" means "No" but also that pressuring a woman into sex is bad as well. If a woman seems hesitant about it, then why push forward with something she might regret later? End of story. As a young man I never felt comfortable engaging in sex with a woman unless she made the move on me, and those handful of women practically had to take my clothes off and specifically ask for it.

Everything with me is difficult. lol.

[evelynne]

That was my husband's approach as well. So it worked out well, with me being the type to be so explicit about exactly what I'm proposing and not proposing.

Did any of those women ever do anything that made you feel uncomfortable? If so, what did you do?

[againstathorn]

Uncomfortable? I never feared for my safety.

I am terrible at picking up cues and flirting. As a young man I indirectly turned down several women because I was unsure about intimacy or the problems that might develop as a result. Sex is complicated, and I didn't want to create a bond that might hurt someone else, or myself, at some later point. The handful of women who went all the way with me would later ration to me that I was a rebound to get back at an ex, or something. I cast no blame, but it still atruck me as a huge waste ot time and a strain on my emotions. Tired of games, I stayed away from physical relations all through college. No drama. 😀

[trianglegrrl]

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, people, how do you have sex with someone you've just met and not actively talk about what you're doing? I've been having sex with one person for 20+ years now and he knows what I like and does that without bothering to ask but we STILL say stuff like "I'm not in the mood for that", "a little lower", "is this OK?", "are you comfortable?" "We're too old for this, let's move to the bed."

EXACTLY. So much this.

[evelynne]

I know, right?!

I wonder how much of my talkativeness is because in situations where I can't see my partner's face (eyes closed, dark room) I can't hear more subtle signs of enjoyment (changes in breathing, etc). I mean, I have to have a play-by-play afterwards and say "Did you like this? Did you like that? Want more of anything in particular?"

[trianglegrrl]

I like the play-by-play idea, actually. I can even think of ways to make that itself very sexy.