Characters I Love that Fandom Hates (Part 1)

[falafel_musings]

In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
The lion still has claws
And mine a long and sharp,my lord,
As long and sharp as yours...

Comments

[hollywoodlawn]

Wow, you are giving Joffrey credit for having way more depth and an ability for self-reflection than he has ever shown as possessing. Joffrey is a psycho, plain and simple

[falafel_musings]

In S1, there's a scene where Joffrey says to Cersai that he's nothing like Robert, so Joffrey seemed very aware of the disconnect between him and his so-called father. Also, it was Joffrey who ordered the slaughter of all Robert's bastards so I think he must have got wind of Robert's bastards looking a lot like Robert while Joffrey looked nothing like Robert. So I agree that Joffrey forces himself to believe that he is the legitimate heir but I also think he fears the incest rumors are true. Though I also believe that Joffrey would never let his fears show, he would commit 100% to the lie, so I can't deny the reading that Joffrey is clueless. I just don't think he was. But either way, Cersei raised Joffrey to rewrite history however is best for him, something Joff was capable of in his play of the war of the five kings

[hollywoodlawn]

And I think she was also the one saying how awful it was the Robb was murdered at his own wedding,

She did! Which definitely seemed like foreshadowing. But perhaps it was too obvious and on the nose? It was meant to make her look guilty. I don't know, Tywin was not that far away from her, surely he would have noticed.

There is also the suggestion that it was in the pie.

My beef with Joffrey was that he was so quintessentially evil king material that I found him quite boring. I couldn't even get that excited about him dying, I was pleased I wouldn't have to listen to him anymore. Unlike Todd Alquist, who was fascinating because he held this dichotomy -- making hinm different to what people expected from a sociopath -- Joffrey was one big ol' cliche on Martin's part. Although, I hear that most of the royal character are based on real people, including Joffrey, with Robert Baratheon as something of a Henry the VIII

[lls_mutant]

I haven't seen the episode yet, but I've read the books so I had no qualms about clicking. I have to say, I totally agree with you about Jack Gleeson. I can't stand Joffrey as a person, although I definitely think there's a lot a fan can unpack there. (I agree a bit with hollywoodlawn that Martin didn't give him quite as much depth explicitly, but I think everything you've said is a completely reasonable extrapolation, and that's what fandom is for, right? Making more sense of characters than the authors did themselves?) But anyway- my original point was despite disliking the character, I 100% agree with you about the actor. He did a fabulous job, and every interview with him seems like he is a truly decent person. I'm not surprised he's quitting acting- I've heard he's gotten a lot of hate because of his character, and he has a distinctive face. It's going to be very hard for him to leave Joffrey behind- the character was too memorable, and people loved hating him. But I'd also totally pay to see him in something else if he chose to

[falafel_musings]

Yay for the Jack Gleeson love! He's a Scottish kid and I know he's part of a theater group so I'd hope to see him at Edinburgh festival one day. I don't think he's actually quitting due to the Joffrey hate though. I've heard he's strongly academic and considers acting as more of a hobby.

I was seriously disturbed by that opening scene with Ramsey hunting and murdering that girl. But then in the next scene with Theon how he gains power through his sadism. It is pretty damn scary.

[hollywoodlawn]

He has an aversion to celebrity culture and apparently gave an amazing speech about it.

Here's GRRM's thoughts about Jack:

It comes across like it could be either, at least at first. By the time there’s the moment with Tyrion looking at Joffrey’s cup of wine, you’ve put it together. So finally, any thoughts about how Jack played Joffrey now that this is his swan song?
Martin: I think Jack was sensational. I met Jack during the filming of the pilot many years ago now, and he’s like the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet. He’s really bright and a fiercely intelligent young man going to Trinity College in Dublin. I don’t know if you’ve seen his speech at the Oxford Union, it’s pretty amazing about celebrity culture. He’s very perceptive and he played this loathsome character and somehow made him more loathsome. He created someone that everybody hates, and loves to hate, and that’s a considerable feat of acting. I feel a little guilty that he’s quitting acting now. I hope that playing Joffrey didn’t help make him want to retire from the

[daybreak777]

My local newspaper spoiled me THIS MORNING. WTF? I just wanted to read the news but there was choking a photo of Joffrey. In color.

Wonder why the actor is quitting the profession? Well, at least he's going out on a great performance.

I don't think Joffrey knows he's a product of incest. His rage at Cersei and Jaime would know no bounds if he knew. I'm glad he died not knowing. He still had his mother's love and his love for her. It's something.

I don't think Arya is quite a sadist yet. I don't think she enjoys inflicting pain. I think she's a traumatized little girl trying to stay alive and keep her own pain at bay. Any way she. But yep, none of the kids on this show are unscathed and could go either way, really, in terms of violence and brutality.

I glad he's gone and ready to move on to the succession but I couldn't imagine celebrating. Though I will admit I will find it very satisfying when and if Arya (or Bran) take their revenge. I won't celebrate but it will be satisfying indeed.

[falafel_musings]

I don't think Joffrey knows he's a product of incest. His rage at Cersei and Jaime would know no bounds if he knew.

IMO, even if Joffrey did know about the incest (for me, he did) then he couldn't openly rage against it. If he raged he'd give those "disgusting lies" credibility. But Joffrey's passive aggressive rage against his real mother and father may still be implied. Like, I remember in S2 Tyrion warning Joffrey that Sansa needed to stay alive to keep Jamie alive and Joffrey seemed quite content to let Jamie die. Like killing Robert's bastards, it'd be another way to destroy evidence of the incest.

I think Arya has become very vengeful and arguably revenge is a form of sadism. I think Arya takes some pleasure in killing those who have killed any of her family or friends. It's more desire to avenge than desire to inflict pain but there's still a lot of overlap. And yes, she is a traumatized kid but who says the traumatized can't become sadistic? Like, Dexter Morgan was traumatized as a child too.

[ever_neutral]

That said Joffrey's younger siblings aren't little monsters so I think the problem comes from how Joffrey was raised. And unlike the younger children, Joffrey was specifically raised to be king. And from what I've seen nobody in Joffrey's family ever raised him to be a good king (as in, morally good).
Yep, this. I love the Lannister twins but good people they are not.

And yeah, the aggressive Joffrey hate in fandom mostly makes me roll my eyes considering that it’s... exactly the reaction both GRRM and the show always intended to arouse by never bothering to flesh him out (like they do virtually every other terrible person in the ‘verse). That said, I can get behind all of your headcanons.

I haven’t seen the ep yet (but read all the books), but from the gifsets I’ve spied it looks like the show did the scene justice. \o/ R.I.P. Joff.

[falafel_musings]

I agree that the show (and I assume the book too) makes no effort whatsoever to show a sympathetic side to Joffrey. So you're right to say this is my headcanon. Maybe it comes from my belief that no child is born evil so I'm looking for reasons why Joffrey has become evil? I really dislike the show's implication that Joff was just evil by his own nature, not by nurture. The show has Tyrion (the show's voice of truth) saying that Cersei is not to blame for Joffrey's evilness and even saying that Cersei's love for her children is her most redeeming feature. Which I don't agree with at all. Cersei and Jamie should never have had three children when the very nature of their conception puts those children at high risk. But they were ruled by their own selfish desires.

[falafel_musings]

Oops, sorry for the late reply, Kaja!

I'll miss Jack so much. It's a shame about the high death toll on this show. We lose so many great actors each season. *sigh* Jack always amazed me in his fearlessness in playing Joffrey. I think the fandom will secretly miss his character because they seemingly had so much fun hating him!

God, I'd almost forgotten the Reek scene. That was so terrible to see. The way they were talking about Theon as though he wasn't standing right there. As though he was already dead. But you could see in his reaction to Robb's death that Theon's old self was still alive in there somewhere. But yes, Alfie is giving a great Gollum-esq performance.

Changing the subject again - how are you getting on with Six Feet Under S4? I think last we spoke you had watched the Anna Gunn episode. There is a very significant (and controversial) episode coming up in the early part of S4. I'm trying to avoid spoiling it if you haven't reached that point yet.

[falafel_musings]

You're not alone in those feelings about David's kidnap. It was a very controversial episode. A lot of viewers felt frustrated that David didn't fight back and escape. But I think the writers intention was to have David be too paralyzed with fear to defend himself. Which I think is actually much closer to how many normal people might react to being kidnapped and terrorized. We all like to think we'd fight back and get away. It's easy to see ways that David could have escaped as a viewer. I think the point the writers were trying to make was that in that situation maybe you don't think clearly or make good decisions.

But from a TV viewer perspective...we are definitely not used to seeing a good guy character being so helpless when they are abducted and attacked.