Contraception in ASoIaF

[sixth_light]

I've been having a few thoughts about the use of "moon tea" in ASoIaF, and why I think Martin hasn't thought the concept through very well. Essentially, moon tea appears to be a reliable abortifacent which can be used at any time in pregnancy. If used early on - i.e., drunk when a woman might be pregnant - it appears to have few to no side effects

Comments

[jumpthesnark]

(Religious texts and their opinions on women's places play a BIG role in this sort of thing, too, so I'd love to know what the scriptures of the Seven have to say about it.)This might be part of the answer. The male facets of the Seven are the Warrior (strength in battle, victory,) the Father (judgement, justice,) and the Smith (crafts, labor, work)--their female counterparts are the Maiden (innocence, chastity) the Mother (fertility, compassion,) and the Crone (wisdom, guidance.) Going both by the names of the facets and the things they are prayed to, the male gods have a pretty clear trend towards being active--fighting, dispensing justice, working with your hands, etc. The female gods are more passive; innocence, compassion, and wisdom are states of being, rather than things you can do. So it could be argued that Westerosi society has a belief, drawn from the Faith of the Seven, that women should devote themselves to... embodying virtues, I guess, while men should devote themselves to actually doing things

[sixth_light]

So it could be argued that Westerosi society has a belief, drawn from the Faith of the Seven, that women should devote themselves to... embodying virtues, I guess, while men should devote themselves to actually doing things.

Hmmm, that makes sense. What I do find odd, though, is that none of the main characters actually think like this; they think it's inappropriate for women to fight, but none of the (likeable) PoV characters get "women can't be active because they are (weak, meant to be passive, not smart enough)" moments, which, realistically, they need to. Even nice guys are going to be a bit sexist in a patriarchal society.

It's possible that the mainland population actually rely on tansy and pennyroyal, which will induce miscarriage but are also very dangerous and riddled with side effects, while the ironborn and wildlings know the magic required to make it safer? I could buy that. It would explain why it hasn't had a wider impact on society. I think I remember the High Septon saying something disapproving about it, too, so

[sparrow_wings]

they think it's inappropriate for women to fight, but none of the (likeable) PoV characters get "women can't be active because they are (weak, meant to be passive, not smart enough)" moments

Could you perhaps expand on that? I'm not grasping the difference here. I'd say that Jaime and Catelyn both start out thinking that Brienne is kind of fundamentally unnatural, and even when Cat gets to like and trust Brienne, she never really gets past that.

modern data on contraception/abortion use among religious groups

What are the tendencies, then? I had always thought that since abortion is so publically, loudly frowned on, a woman who had one would keep quiet about it -- like, you might do it, but as secretly as possible.

[coaldustcanary]

Just to begin, set against Real World Culture, Martin-world is ridiculous in its entirety. He suggests that this world has seen a quasi-medieval culture without much in the way of technical advancement or notable cultural change away from feudalism for something like 10,000 years, without introducing any real reason for that to be the case. Now, is it possible that there is some big magical macguffin holding everyone to running in place? Maybe. But there's zero evidence of such an effect beyond the very scary lack of change

[pewter]

I think the 'macguffin' holding everything in place is the cycle of the seasons. For all that they might be able to progress when there are summer children, the bitterness of winter might do a lot to halt technological progress.

Not to mention dragons. I would also guess that the 'feudalism' of 10,000 years ago is not going to be the same as modern Westeros anymore than the rulers of medevial france were the same as the governors of rome.

[pewter]

This reminded me to go read the timeline - the current feudalism has been in place for about 1200 years, not 10k, although I do agree that a lot of things (how do they feed themselves in the long winter o.O) are ridiculous.

[sixth_light]

I have degrees in science and history. I love the story, but every time I try to think about the mechanics of Martinworld, either socially or scientifically, my brain breaks a little. It's only with things like reproductive rights that I just can't resist trying to parse it logically. (And failing.)

I think the best explanation we can come up with is that society has not been static for 10K years, there have been forgotten disasters that retarded progress. It probably hasn't actually been 10K years, either (e.g. Sam's discovery that the records of the Night Watch only mention 600-odd Lord Commanders, not 997 - and 997 isn't enough for 10K years, either. It's maybe enough for 3000-4000.) But you'd think, at the least, they would have moved up to early modern technology.

[wombat1138]

John M. Riddle has written several books about the history of herbal contraception. I haven't read any of them recently, and at the moment I can't pull them off the bookshelf to check because I have a cat napping on me. But iirc he has reasonable documentation of some fairly reliable methods, including several of the so-called "patent medicines" that were promoted as promoting regular periods and "restarting stopped menses" (ahem).

It's possible that Cersei's own understanding of moon tea and the menstrual cycle may be more than a little warped because of her own circumstances (frex fooling around with Jaime since before Tyrion was even born).