gay marriage

[feministransguy]

I hold that old school second wave view that state-validated marriage is irredeemable, that love should not be tied to the state. Add to that the view that we should fight to include everyone (single, widowed, divorced, etc.) in rights of affiliation rather than trying to be mainstream and that  in an age of computer tracking for identities there

Comments

[mosno]

It's interesting to hear you say that you believe that "love should not be tied to the state", because if queer love wasn't outlawed by the state due to "moral objections" from the masses, then we would be able to marry, love, care for, and/or legally affiliate ourselves to each other without having any laws amended.

I agree that all people should be able to designate the power of attorney and so forth to whomever they choose, and change it at any time. But I think that marriage is a more complex issue than that.

I understand the point behind your politics and respect it. But to me the right to love who I love without legal consequence or restriction is really the soul of what I am fighting for in the "gay rights" movement.

[feministransguy]

Re: "love should not be tied to the state: Well exactly. I want love not to be sanctioned or outlawed by the state based on gender/sexual orientation. If I were the fascist ruler of all I beheld "marriage" would be a religious, spiritual, or personal issue not something with over 1,000 legal rights and responsibilities.

[mosno]

I hear you. But that calls for a much greater reform of our society than just getting queers to be granted equal opportunities. That calls for a major economic and social change of values in a society obsessed with equating family making to the progress of our economy. That would be better. I agree. But I think that realistically the change is going to have to happen one step at a time. Y'know? And I do think that the legalization of gay marriage would be a logical first step considering the current moral/political climate. Cuz then if it's legal for anybody to have these rights, then what's the big deal of making them so hard to come by? Separating the ceremonies from the rights would be a logical route too. But that would create additional hoops for gays to jump through I would think.

[feministransguy]

Yes, agreed. The route you advocate *is* more realistic and the likely way incremental change will happen. My main objection to gay marriage is that it, like many LGB-related changes, helps the most assimilated people while still leaving out in the cold those who criticize the present system instead of wanting their piece of it. I agree that gay marriage is a logical first step for gay civil rights given the climate, but I think things that help everyone (like universal healthcare, anti-harassment, & anti-poverty [keeping in mind that transpeople and gender-variant people are disproportionately un- & underemployed]) are better places to put resources.

[thewatchbreaker]

I remember reading Michael Warner's The Trouble With Normal in college. Warner makes a similar arguement, reacting against the normalization by marriage movement within the gay community. A running theme of his work is that gay marriage would "sanctif[y] some couples at the expense of others. It is selective legitimacy," leaving "unmarried queers looking more deviant." (I got the quotes from Salon.com; my copy of the book is boxed up somewhere.)

It's an argument I can understand intellectually. At the same time, I'm glad every time an "activist" court subverts the "will of the people."

If this does go on to be an issue in the election cycle (And I have no doubt that it will), it only goes to show the power of hatred to trump the issues that should really matter.

[feministransguy]

I agree with you on all counts. While I'd like to see marriage divorced from legal rights and responsibilities for everyone, since that is unlikely to happen, I do enjoy the moments when activist courts subvert the current messed up system. I hope we are wrong about your third point, but I expect gay marriage may continue to have traction as a wedge issue.