10th Rise of the Phoenix ஜ Action/Voice

May 15, 2011 21:23

[Filtered from Selphie | You can probably hack this by just sneezing]How many of you have gone to school? I don't mean studying about something specific like magic to be a sorcerer or however that's done. I mean a general school, with several classes and a lot of hours sitting on a desk doing nothing but listening to the teacher. Do that type of ( Read more... )

[rpg]luceti, *voice, [char]kirimi nekozawa, [char]robert hastings, [char]vincent valentine, *action, [char]ingrid, [char]jiro kusano, [char]lucy pevensie, [char]r. giles, [char]haruhi suzumiya, [char]rydia, [char]leo baskerville, [char]ami mizuno

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 16 2011, 01:17:16 UTC
I was educated, as nearly all Terrans are, in a comprehensive scholastic setting for much of my lifetime.

[Robert pauses slightly, before adding:] Ah, but it was rarely sitting there and listening to a teacher. Rather, classes were far more immersive and intuitive than that.

Does your world lack an educational system? [It's a sincere question, though it probably comes off as pedantic.]

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 26 2011, 08:19:26 UTC
[This? This is like taking everything Robert's been taught about war and throwing it out the nearest window. It is a mental shock to have it laid out like that. The idea that a war can be words - that a debate can be a "weapon" - completely belies anything he'd ever been taught about the potential of fighting.

He resists it for now, of course. But Ikki's words might prove the difference between Robert's bigotry evaporating sooner rather than later.]

...

It d-does seem like... such people would be good to have around...

... A-At any rate, I... I do hope this war ends soon, in your world. If it cannot be helped, at least.

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 26 2011, 10:42:30 UTC
It certainly would. If no one fights unless they are attacked, by logic the number of wars will go down greatly. I don't think they will ever truly disappear, it's in human nature for conflicts to arise, but they wouldn't be so vicious as they are.

[Ikki sighs heavily on his end at the last words. The war ending soon, he wonders if that's really possible. With Hades gone, with Poseidon sealed and the number of enemies in the past that Athena and her Saints had defeated, the war should have ended. Hades was the biggest threat, the most constant one, the reason why Athena kept reincarnating in time to fight him. With him gone, peace should have returned, they should have turned and focused on just keeping the Sanctuary alive, gathering new Saints -willing ones- for the future, to keep protecting the Earth in case any evil tried to attack it again ( ... )

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 26 2011, 17:56:58 UTC
That is essentially how Terra came to eliminate war, I would think. Simply refusing to fight. [It's not that simple by any means - it took a good long time of self-delusion, suppression of aggression and in general turning the entire thing of violence into a horrible taboo. Is that worth the end result of no war? Good question. Robert would think it is, but then again, he's been indoctrinated for most of his life.]

Perhaps, when this war ends, more wars will be unnecessary. [Spoken like a true idealist.]

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 26 2011, 18:57:15 UTC
Simply refusing to fight? I find hard to believe that it would be that simple. And refusing to fight isn't the same as not wanting to start a fight.

[In all honesty he can't see it working well that way, but then again he's convinced that he can't do anything else but fight so he may be wrong.]

Perhaps. Hope is always the last thing to vanish after all.

[Didn't the myth go that way? And he had seen it with his own eyes, people dying, using their last breaths to pass on a message of hope, a wish for the future. Esmeralda, who had countless times begged him to stop training to become a Saint, in her deathbed asked him to raise his wings and let the phoenix's fire shine. Pandora, begged him to stop Hades, to avenge her and her family, telling him as much as she could about the enemies he had yet to face up to her last breath. The Gold Saints as well... It was hope what kept making the world go on after all, though many would still argue that it's one of its greater evils.]

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 27 2011, 02:42:51 UTC
In most Terrans' case, it is both. I myself would neither want to start a fight, nor continue it were it to be begun.

[It probably helps that they come from entirely different perspectives on this topic. Somebody trained to fight since a young age, versus somebody being trained to be a pacifist for the same period of time... Yeah, those are fairly difficult-to-reconcile positions.]

Hope... it is a fascinating mental state. Sometimes illogical, but... it can be helpful. Sometimes.

[The cynic in Robert wants to say it's most helpful as a placebo. But... he doesn't know about that quite so much, anymore. Not after Luceti.]

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 27 2011, 10:02:10 UTC
So you would prefer to stand there and be killed? I don't know if your world is really such an utopia or if you've just been extremely lucky to never have anywhere close to you a situation like that.

[Ikki, you have been extremely unlucky since you were born, having to see the worst of the world since ever. You can't really blame others for not being so unlucky, no matter what world they are from. There's a hint of amusement in his words though it's hard to know what is it that he finds amusing exactly.]

If it's illogical then you're saying that your comment about more wars being unneeded in my world after this one is over is an illogical one and that actually more wars will keep coming.

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 27 2011, 14:49:02 UTC
[Ouch. Congratulations for finding a serious flaw in Terran ideology, Ikki. Robert actually visibly flinches a bit at that; it isn't something that he has had to deal with.]

... I... suppose. But yes, that was... was what I would have done in most circumstances. Is what I would do in most circumstances.

[Expect that to... possibly change. Maybe. Eventually.

And the next part kind of gets a raised eyebrow.] Not necessarily. After all, it should hardly be dependent on hope. One can hope for better conditions, yes, but said conditions ought to arise as a consequence of planned, logical forethought.

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 27 2011, 17:34:02 UTC
And of course I assume you would just stand there and let the people you care about be killed rather than fight to protect them, right?

[Actually Ikki doesn't sound annoyed or judgmental. It's clear that he's against that course of action but he's not offensive about it, which is surprising. Of course it may be because he honestly doubts anyone would really stand to that, he has seen his brother get almost killed due not wanting to hurt his opponent, but he has seen him fight with nails and teeth to protect those he loved. He can't imagine anyone being so brainwashed that even such a basic instinct of protecting the people you love at the cost of your own life would be erased.]

Except that with something like a war, no matter how much you plan and put logical forethought as you said, if the other party wants to fight, there will be a fight. Or a massacre in the case of you refusing to fight back, but that still wouldn't deny the fact that it's a war.

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 28 2011, 09:41:42 UTC
[Another major sticking point for Robert, here. Phoenix Ikki, you're remarkably good at hitting Robert in all the weak points, entirely by accident.]

... I... I d-do not know, really.

... It, it was never a question I... encountered, before here.

[Having nobody to really care about to that extent, it was an almost irrelevant proposal - and besides, he has never had to entertain the idea of his friends really truly being in danger.

... Here it's fair game, and that scares him.

It's enough that he's hung up on that part, actually.]

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 28 2011, 12:29:14 UTC
[He doesn't do it on purpose or with that goal, but he has always seemed to end knowing where to hit people in those matters. It's what drove Seiya mad at him at times, that and his general attitude of "I don't care".]

Hn, that's probably the best answer there is. I've seen people claiming that they would protect someone they cared for to the cost of their lives, run away and beg to not be killed ad have their loved one killed instead when the situation arose.

If you don't know what you would do in that situation, your world must truly be ideal or you really lucky. Or you just don't have anyone you really care about, but I doubt that's the case.

[There was enough hesitation in the voice to show that, at least here, this guy may have someone he cares about to that extent.]

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 29 2011, 06:29:52 UTC
[It's hard to admit this to a complete stranger, but Robert says, awkwardly:] On Terra, the... general thought was that, well, violence for any reason at all was completely inethical... and that anybody who was capable of committing it was the most heinous of barbarians.

...

My time here in Luceti has... ch-changed that perspective... It was u-unfair of me to, to judge other people based on the ethics of my world, at least in this context.

...

But I still do not... understand how people can... c-can fight.

[He's really trying. He really is. It's just ridiculously hard, and he's fighting over two hundred years of taboos.]

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[Voice] flamesofanger May 29 2011, 13:56:26 UTC
[That something is "general" doesn't mean that it's "absolute", not in Ikki's book, it just mean that the majority think that way, are trained to think that way. But not all of them, because he thinks that is just impossible, that everyone would absolutely agree on something, no matter how much they were taught to think that way. So he assumes that Robert has really been lucky to not see the bad side of his world, or that given what the general thought is, those who don't agree with it act in a less direct way than they would in other worlds so this guy may not be able to see it even if it's right in front of him.

Ikki is a blunt person, he doesn't tend to keep quiet on what he thinks, but sometimes he knows it's better to keep it quiet. And so he shuts up regarding that.]It's not a matter of understanding. There's no logic on it other than wanting to protect something, that's why I fight at least. Not for power or money, I don't care about those things. But there are people and things in the world that I want to protect, to see ( ... )

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[Voice] semper_cogitans May 29 2011, 23:39:09 UTC
[Yes, "general" does not mean "absolute". But it does mean that it is very difficult to find dissenters. Between the overbearingness of the taboos, and the difficulty of finding like-minded individuals in a mostly homogenous culture, people like this are few and far between. But Ikki is right in that violence comes out in different ways; quiet ways, sometimes insidious ways.]

... I cannot say if it... makes you a barbarian, anymore.

I have heard that... v-vi - ... fighting [- see, he's trying to correct himself -] can be done with ethical principles in mind...

My partner t-told me so... he fights too, for, for s-self-defense, he says. He d-does not want to fight, but... sometimes he, he has to. I think.

[This is a difficult subject for Robert. If he thinks about it - really thinks about it - almost all of the people he trusts; nay, loves in this place... they could all be tried for high crimes on Terra.

... He knows Don could. Don admitted to killing people.]... I... I have nearly been killed here before. Twice ( ... )

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[Voice] flamesofanger June 1 2011, 21:00:59 UTC
I won't say that there aren't people who want to fight just for the sake of it. But from experience, most of the people who fight would prefer to enjoy a peaceful life, they just have too much pride, sense of justice or whatever to keep themselves quiet while others attack them or the ones they care about.

[Ikki notices that it's a difficult subject, and this guy is really having trouble with it. It's almost a bit disturbing, mostly because it's clear that this guy has been taught to think like this since little, that he has been trained to be like this. Makes him wonder if he comes across the same way at times, maybe not so wavering but confused and lost as well.]

Hn, sorry, but I'm the kind of person who can't say "I'm sure it will be all right" or anything positive. To a situation like this my instinct is to say that "they can't kill you if you kill them first" or that "they can't kill you if you kill yourself first". None of those options are viable though.

[He can admit that at least.]This is a dangerous place, mostly because ( ... )

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[Voice] semper_cogitans June 3 2011, 07:26:07 UTC
[It's fitting that Robert is hearing this from a relative stranger - things that he's never heard anybody say about violence before. They are weird and scary and disturbing on many levels to him - yes, Ikki comes off as indoctrinated to him too, though he doesn't exactly have that word in his mind. Still... there are points in there that he's not sure if he can automatically disqualify, and that worries him.]

... In this place, death is not even permanent, or so I have been informed...

... I have yet to see it happen, of course.

[Slowly:] ... I o-ought to... introduce myself, though, wh-what with how long we have been conversing. [Really, this is a long conversation - and a deep one - to have without knowing each others' name.]

... I am Professor Robert Alexander Hastings.

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