It's not just a language difference though, is it? People are different in all sorts of ways, and a lot of them expect you to think like them. I should think that there are ways I am culturally similar to you that would not apply to American English speakers, though they're nominally similar.
I tend to find thinking in French to be more formal, but then I don't know idiomatic French to think in.
Yes and no. I suspect you get the same kind of problem when talking to an American, as in, they don't know how your school system and TV programs and political system and sports are different from theirs and expect you to adapt. But we are speaking English here, which means I'm on your home ground. It can't be easy for you either to have to try to understand foreigners who make mistakes all the time, but in all dealings you have the advantage - you know how It Is and when in doubt, it is to be assumed that I don't. I'm not complaining, I chose to be and to to stay in LJ because I'm happy here, but esperanto does fulfil a deep-rooted longing as well.
I don't have enough distance to judge on that. I do know that I don't like your not having a difference between tu and vous, it encourages people to take liberties they have not automatically been granted.
I've had people tell me it felt awkward because, and that's true, you don't always know how to address some people and sometimes it takes extra clarification. I have the feeling you also don't use the formal addresses to the same people in French and in Dutch or German, though that could depend on the people more than on the country, I dunno. But I like that I don't get to be friendly with everyone right away and that it takes some gauging and talking before we get informal. Yay for snobbishness!
It funny because theoretically esperanto doesn't have an informal address, they have a "you" and an equivalent of the English "thou", but apparently southerners use the "thou" as a "tu" :)
But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way.
Yes, when both are on an equal footing - like when we two communicate in English. But if, say, I only spoke French and you weren't proficient in it yet, I maybe wouldn't be that interested in the reasons why you mis-use a word and wouldn't go "aaah" at the clarification, and you'd get frustrated with not being able to express the different meanings. Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they? The enrichment comes from having passed so many messages over and back that one begins to form a global picture of what the other is like.
Mistakophobia could very well be French. All language teachers complain that no one participates in class, but they spend their time correcting every little mistake so that doesn't really encourage people to try.
And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!Oh yes. But, on the other hand
( ... )
Hm. I don't know that much about it yet, but at present it looks like it does make for a complex universe - the philosophy behind the word-building, the way concepts are broken down to little bits and then reassembled, that sort of thing. I'd need to be more proficient to go further on that kind of analysis though.
are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another
But don't you dream of being able to remain Romanian when talking to a Frenchman or an Englishman? (or vice-versa). I know your self is made of all those components, but wouldn't you be able to syncretise all of them in a neutral language? That's kind of what I'm after in esperanto.
I think I'm probably "too French" in my perception of mistakes :(
I do know what you mean by twisting yourself in another language until you almost seemed a different person. In English, I'm a verbally adept person who defines myself, to a large extent, through my use of language. In French, I'm...not. But having that experience for the first time was, I think, really valuable, both because it gave me an awareness of people who were very different from me, culturally, and it gave me a broader sense of myself. I could function and make friends even if I couldn't say clever things all the time. And once being told that "tu te debrouille tres bien" (have I got the endings right? it's been a while) was one of the nicest compliments I received in French, and very hard to translate.
On the other hand, perpetually being told that my speaking/writing betrayed a "tres anglo-saxon" thought process was less pleasant.
And the twisting gets really bad when you start betraying anglo-saxon thought processes when you write in English as a foreign language - what's left of your own Frenchness?
Hmmm...my own Frenchness is of a rather limited sort ~g~, but if you'll give me the more general "one's own language-specific sense of self," I do agree with you (although it doesn't sound as nice). Except that I always aspired to French thought processes and never really made it...
I'm sensing a marathon conversation in the offing, because while I see your point about Esperanto, I like the idiosyncrasies of language (as you value your Frenchness), and I also think that if we all started speaking Esperanto, it would quickly become loaded with different meanings in different places. ~dangles cultural argument enticingly~
I don't think the goal is to all speak esperanto, all the time. It's more of a palliative measure - we can't all understand each other, nor access all of the world's literature, and that's a shame. Investing a couple of months to learn esperanto, on an individual level, makes one able to communicate on a whole other level, it's a passport for internationality and perhaps a gateway to learning another language, if one falls in love with one peculiar language, person or country via practising esperanto. It's not the panacea to all human dissent, but it's far better than the alternatives.
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I tend to find thinking in French to be more formal, but then I don't know idiomatic French to think in.
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I don't have enough distance to judge on that. I do know that I don't like your not having a difference between tu and vous, it encourages people to take liberties they have not automatically been granted.
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(The comment has been removed)
It funny because theoretically esperanto doesn't have an informal address, they have a "you" and an equivalent of the English "thou", but apparently southerners use the "thou" as a "tu" :)
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But isn't misunderstanding the essence of human communication? I mean it in a wholly positive way.
Yes, when both are on an equal footing - like when we two communicate in English. But if, say, I only spoke French and you weren't proficient in it yet, I maybe wouldn't be that interested in the reasons why you mis-use a word and wouldn't go "aaah" at the clarification, and you'd get frustrated with not being able to express the different meanings. Ultimately, people communicate to get a message across, not to enrich each other, don't they? The enrichment comes from having passed so many messages over and back that one begins to form a global picture of what the other is like.
Mistakophobia could very well be French. All language teachers complain that no one participates in class, but they spend their time correcting every little mistake so that doesn't really encourage people to try.
And it's such a satisfaction to pwn someone in his own native language!Oh yes. But, on the other hand ( ... )
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are separate universes for me, I change my worldview when I jump from the one to another
But don't you dream of being able to remain Romanian when talking to a Frenchman or an Englishman? (or vice-versa). I know your self is made of all those components, but wouldn't you be able to syncretise all of them in a neutral language? That's kind of what I'm after in esperanto.
I think I'm probably "too French" in my perception of mistakes :(
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I do know what you mean by twisting yourself in another language until you almost seemed a different person. In English, I'm a verbally adept person who defines myself, to a large extent, through my use of language. In French, I'm...not. But having that experience for the first time was, I think, really valuable, both because it gave me an awareness of people who were very different from me, culturally, and it gave me a broader sense of myself. I could function and make friends even if I couldn't say clever things all the time. And once being told that "tu te debrouille tres bien" (have I got the endings right? it's been a while) was one of the nicest compliments I received in French, and very hard to translate.
On the other hand, perpetually being told that my speaking/writing betrayed a "tres anglo-saxon" thought process was less pleasant.
You think about the coolest things.
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(It's good to have you back!!!)
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I'm sensing a marathon conversation in the offing, because while I see your point about Esperanto, I like the idiosyncrasies of language (as you value your Frenchness), and I also think that if we all started speaking Esperanto, it would quickly become loaded with different meanings in different places. ~dangles cultural argument enticingly~
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