crazy christians
Ok, my aunt sent me this FW a while ago and we started to message back and forth about it. I don't think that I'm explaining myself very well to her or that she is actually getting what I'm trying to say. It's kind of a lengthy thing but it starts w/ the original post and goes on to our subsequent messages.
This came from the rabbi where Amy and Warren worship. I was rather shocked to read it -- and ashamed at my paltry knowledge of history.
If anyone finds out it is an exaggeration, please put the word out.
Bev
An amazing bit of history. Seems to intense to be true, but I checked one hoax source, and it seems valid.
A true account of history that needs repeating!
What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
January 2007
Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States
congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the
Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States
during his ceremonial swearing-in.
Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew
more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House.
Ellison represents the 5th Congressional District of Minnesota.
The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas
Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America's
founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the
Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived
in the library.
Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in
college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that
"a visionary like Jefferson" believed that wisdom could be gleaned from
many sources.
There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom
could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned
the book, he needed to know everything possible about Muslims because
he was about to advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.
Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once
well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is
mostly forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries
enslaved millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian
Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.
Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and
Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves.
The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages
had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off
as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the
preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.
Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as
concubines in Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual
interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives
at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow.
Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create
eunuchs who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the
Middle East. Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major
African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It
was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the
mutilation survived after the surgery.
When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American
merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for
protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews
enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of
Algiers"--an Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.
Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by
the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate
treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special
commission consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin
Franklin, to oversee the negotiations.
Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean,
the new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by
agreeing to pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized
American ships and buy the freedom of enslaved sailors.
Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get
American commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was
opposed. He believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute
and wanted matters settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a
league of trading nations to force an end to Muslim piracy.
In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams,
then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji
Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.
The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress'
vote to appease.
During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why
Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which
they had no previous contacts.
In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future
presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had
answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it
was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have
acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and
duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make
slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman
(Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."
For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims
millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the
return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute
amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in
1800.
Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he
dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the
Mediterranean, and informed Congress.
Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not
one cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying
American Marines and many of America's best warships to the Muslim
Barbary Coast.
The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS
Chesapeake, USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.
In 1805, American Marines marched across the dessert from Egypt into
Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all
American slaves.
During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States,
crumbling as a result of intense American naval bombardment and on
shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery
and piracy.
Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn,
with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli,
we will fight our country's battles on the land as on the sea."
It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total
defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.
Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put
and end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson.
He was a "visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from
their own Muslim book of jihad.
(end first e-mail)
I would like to remind everyone of the Crusades.-Ivory
(end second e-mail)
Good morning, Ivory,
Hope school and all is going well. Not that any of us need to worry about your scholastic standing! ^_^ We so appreciated the phone call from your family at Thanksgiving -- or was it Christmas? Our season was just a wee bit wild here. Anyway, glad you were all together.
Now then, about this e-mail. Do you have time to get a little dialogue going? I was puzzled at the reminder about the Crusades. What do you mean, exactly? Well, I KNOW the Crusades are an absolute antithesis of what Jesus would want us to do -- horrible and shameful blot on the history of Christianity. But I didn't think the FW I sent was a comparison of the moral validity of the Bible and the Quran. I thought the writer was pointing out the error of Ellison in implying that Jefferson the 'visionary' had a positive attitude toward the Muslim religion (and, by implication, that we should feel the same). IF the article is correct, it seems Jefferson viewed the Quran as dangerous to our national interests, so Ellison's statement was misleading.
Well, as I say, if you have time, I'd love to hear more thoughts.
Love, Aunt Bev
(end third message)
Greetings,
My point about the Crusades is that if we are going to judge a certain religion by its history, then we should take a good look at our own too. the FW said that the Muslims felt that they had a right to attack any non-Muslims because they were 'sinners'. From my understanding that is exactly what the Christians did in the Crusades. Also, I find the entire point of the FW a little offensive. It is spreading the message that Muslims are to be feared, are unAmerican and should be exterminated. I know that not everyone would see the FW that way but if you look at it all of those suggestions are there. Do you disagree?
luv,
Ivory
(end fourth message)
Oh, I TOTALLY agree that it puts Islam in a negative light, but it seems to me that their own sacred book causes this. Are we not to believe the actual words? Actually, I have not read the Quran to substantiate that it does indeed call for 'jihad' on non-Muslims. I should and could do that, because Chas has a copy. If the quotes about jihad are accurate, do you personally think that some Muslims want to do harm to America, or all non-Muslim nations for that matter?
As for judging Christianity, of course, we should never try to deny historical fact. As I said in my previous e-mail, my understanding of the Crusades is that they were not in any way pleasing to Jesus. It is always curious to me that people seem to think Christians should be morally superior to non-Christians. Of course, there is a sense in which that is true -- because our love for God should lead us to do only those things that please Him. But who of us does not sin? And THAT is the whole point of Jesus -- to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, declare us pure because of His sacrifice.
To me, being a Christian is admitting that I am absolutely helpless to make myself pleasing to God. And yet, He loves me! Enough to die for me! He wouldn't have bothered to do that if it weren't necessary, if some of us could, by serious effort, make ourselves clean.
Well, we have wandered from the political nature of that e-mail, which I think is more what it is all about than religion. After all, if the Muslims had been some totally secular institution, they would still have been a danger to our ships and thus to our economy. Jefferson understood that at his time in history, Muslims were a danger, and he thought war, rather than appeasement, was the way to protect our interests and our safety. And when Ellison implied that Jefferson thought this danger was not a danger, Ellison was being deceitful, although perhaps not by design; he simply may not know all of Jefferson's opinions at that time.
Hope you haven't fallen asleep at the length of this! You can tell I've had a long nap and am feeling a little better!
Love, Aunt Bev
(end fifth message)
I saw this special on the Discovery channel about pirates last week. They did actually mention the whole Tripoli/American sailors/ ransom thing. While they did not mention whether or not the pirates were Muslim or not, they did say a lot of other things about pirates of that time period. Piracy was actually started by European nations, namely Portugal, Spain, England, etc. The national governments of these countries licensed privateers to attack ships and settlements of the countries they were at war with. Eventually these privateers became pirates and started attacking everyone they could in order to steal as much as possible. At that time everyone was in danger from these lawless men and women. I'm certainly not excusing the acts of any Muslim pirates there may have been at the time or of any other pirates opperating at the time. However, I don't think that everything sent via e-mail can be completely trusted at face value. There is a definite scew to the story presented in this FW.
I have not read the Quran either, so I don't pretend to be any great expert, but I've heard no definative thing on the issue of jihad. It is definitely a present in the Muslim culture somewhere, but I've also heard that the Quran doesn't promote the widespread killing of non-Muslims that we associate with it. I have always heard that it is Muslim extremists who perpetrate this sort of thing. I'm sure that I don't have to remind you that there are extremists in all religions, Christianity included. You have said that the Crusades were not carried out in the true spirit of Christ and I agree. Maybe the same is true for Muslims in this story, I don't know. My point is that the spirit of this FW is unAmerican and unChristian because it promotes intolerance. 'Love one another, as I have loved you.'
-Ivory
(end sixth message)
Why would you say the FW promotes intolerance? IF the historical info. is accurate -- and I do realize that is an IF -- the point is to identify deception about why Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Quran in his library. In light of the seafaring situation of that day, it is far more likely that the wisdom he hoped to gain from the book was for protection of the economic interests of the United States than to accept the Quran's teachings in the more positive way implied by Congressman Ellison.
Also about intolerance, is it intolerant to say that Christians butchered people in the Crusades? That IS an historical FACT, sickened though we are about it. So, if the Muslim pirating situation was true, why is it intolerant to say so?
Oh, and I have to ask one more question, about 'love one another as I have loved you.' I really don't know what Jesus would do about dangers to our nation; but I can't quite think that, if He were in a military or political leadership position, He would just let another power come in and slaughter us. Do you think Christians should be Pacifists? I'm not sure where I stand on that issue, so I would love to hear your thoughts.
Love, Aunt Bev
(end seventh message)
The reason that I say that this FW promotes intolerance is why these things are being discussed. The point was not to identify deception about why Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Quran. It is trying to say that we should take a cue from Thomas Jefferson and aggressively eradicate Muslims in order to protect ourselves. The information may be accurate, but it is put forth in an extremely prejudicial light. It is akin to using the crusades as proof that Christians want to forcibly convert or slaughter all other peoples. Besides we have gone way beyond defending ourselves now. I don't think that Jesus would condone something like the perpetual warfare that we have been hearing about on the news.
-Ivory
This came from the rabbi where Amy and Warren worship. I was rather shocked to read it -- and ashamed at my paltry knowledge of history.
If anyone finds out it is an exaggeration, please put the word out.
Bev
An amazing bit of history. Seems to intense to be true, but I checked one hoax source, and it seems valid.
A true account of history that needs repeating!
What Thomas Jefferson learned from the Muslim book of jihad
By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
January 2007
Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States
congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the
Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States
during his ceremonial swearing-in.
Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew
more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House.
Ellison represents the 5th Congressional District of Minnesota.
The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas
Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America's
founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the
Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived
in the library.
Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in
college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that
"a visionary like Jefferson" believed that wisdom could be gleaned from
many sources.
There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom
could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned
the book, he needed to know everything possible about Muslims because
he was about to advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.
Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once
well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is
mostly forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries
enslaved millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian
Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.
Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and
Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves.
The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages
had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off
as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the
preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.
Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as
concubines in Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual
interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives
at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow.
Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create
eunuchs who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the
Middle East. Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major
African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It
was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the
mutilation survived after the surgery.
When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American
merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for
protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews
enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of
Algiers"--an Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.
Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by
the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate
treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special
commission consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin
Franklin, to oversee the negotiations.
Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean,
the new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by
agreeing to pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized
American ships and buy the freedom of enslaved sailors.
Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get
American commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was
opposed. He believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute
and wanted matters settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a
league of trading nations to force an end to Muslim piracy.
In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams,
then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji
Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.
The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress'
vote to appease.
During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why
Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which
they had no previous contacts.
In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future
presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had
answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it
was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have
acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and
duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make
slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman
(Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."
For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims
millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the
return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute
amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in
1800.
Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he
dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the
Mediterranean, and informed Congress.
Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not
one cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying
American Marines and many of America's best warships to the Muslim
Barbary Coast.
The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS
Chesapeake, USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.
In 1805, American Marines marched across the dessert from Egypt into
Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all
American slaves.
During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States,
crumbling as a result of intense American naval bombardment and on
shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery
and piracy.
Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn,
with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli,
we will fight our country's battles on the land as on the sea."
It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total
defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.
Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put
and end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson.
He was a "visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from
their own Muslim book of jihad.
(end first e-mail)
I would like to remind everyone of the Crusades.-Ivory
(end second e-mail)
Good morning, Ivory,
Hope school and all is going well. Not that any of us need to worry about your scholastic standing! ^_^ We so appreciated the phone call from your family at Thanksgiving -- or was it Christmas? Our season was just a wee bit wild here. Anyway, glad you were all together.
Now then, about this e-mail. Do you have time to get a little dialogue going? I was puzzled at the reminder about the Crusades. What do you mean, exactly? Well, I KNOW the Crusades are an absolute antithesis of what Jesus would want us to do -- horrible and shameful blot on the history of Christianity. But I didn't think the FW I sent was a comparison of the moral validity of the Bible and the Quran. I thought the writer was pointing out the error of Ellison in implying that Jefferson the 'visionary' had a positive attitude toward the Muslim religion (and, by implication, that we should feel the same). IF the article is correct, it seems Jefferson viewed the Quran as dangerous to our national interests, so Ellison's statement was misleading.
Well, as I say, if you have time, I'd love to hear more thoughts.
Love, Aunt Bev
(end third message)
Greetings,
My point about the Crusades is that if we are going to judge a certain religion by its history, then we should take a good look at our own too. the FW said that the Muslims felt that they had a right to attack any non-Muslims because they were 'sinners'. From my understanding that is exactly what the Christians did in the Crusades. Also, I find the entire point of the FW a little offensive. It is spreading the message that Muslims are to be feared, are unAmerican and should be exterminated. I know that not everyone would see the FW that way but if you look at it all of those suggestions are there. Do you disagree?
luv,
Ivory
(end fourth message)
Oh, I TOTALLY agree that it puts Islam in a negative light, but it seems to me that their own sacred book causes this. Are we not to believe the actual words? Actually, I have not read the Quran to substantiate that it does indeed call for 'jihad' on non-Muslims. I should and could do that, because Chas has a copy. If the quotes about jihad are accurate, do you personally think that some Muslims want to do harm to America, or all non-Muslim nations for that matter?
As for judging Christianity, of course, we should never try to deny historical fact. As I said in my previous e-mail, my understanding of the Crusades is that they were not in any way pleasing to Jesus. It is always curious to me that people seem to think Christians should be morally superior to non-Christians. Of course, there is a sense in which that is true -- because our love for God should lead us to do only those things that please Him. But who of us does not sin? And THAT is the whole point of Jesus -- to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, declare us pure because of His sacrifice.
To me, being a Christian is admitting that I am absolutely helpless to make myself pleasing to God. And yet, He loves me! Enough to die for me! He wouldn't have bothered to do that if it weren't necessary, if some of us could, by serious effort, make ourselves clean.
Well, we have wandered from the political nature of that e-mail, which I think is more what it is all about than religion. After all, if the Muslims had been some totally secular institution, they would still have been a danger to our ships and thus to our economy. Jefferson understood that at his time in history, Muslims were a danger, and he thought war, rather than appeasement, was the way to protect our interests and our safety. And when Ellison implied that Jefferson thought this danger was not a danger, Ellison was being deceitful, although perhaps not by design; he simply may not know all of Jefferson's opinions at that time.
Hope you haven't fallen asleep at the length of this! You can tell I've had a long nap and am feeling a little better!
Love, Aunt Bev
(end fifth message)
I saw this special on the Discovery channel about pirates last week. They did actually mention the whole Tripoli/American sailors/ ransom thing. While they did not mention whether or not the pirates were Muslim or not, they did say a lot of other things about pirates of that time period. Piracy was actually started by European nations, namely Portugal, Spain, England, etc. The national governments of these countries licensed privateers to attack ships and settlements of the countries they were at war with. Eventually these privateers became pirates and started attacking everyone they could in order to steal as much as possible. At that time everyone was in danger from these lawless men and women. I'm certainly not excusing the acts of any Muslim pirates there may have been at the time or of any other pirates opperating at the time. However, I don't think that everything sent via e-mail can be completely trusted at face value. There is a definite scew to the story presented in this FW.
I have not read the Quran either, so I don't pretend to be any great expert, but I've heard no definative thing on the issue of jihad. It is definitely a present in the Muslim culture somewhere, but I've also heard that the Quran doesn't promote the widespread killing of non-Muslims that we associate with it. I have always heard that it is Muslim extremists who perpetrate this sort of thing. I'm sure that I don't have to remind you that there are extremists in all religions, Christianity included. You have said that the Crusades were not carried out in the true spirit of Christ and I agree. Maybe the same is true for Muslims in this story, I don't know. My point is that the spirit of this FW is unAmerican and unChristian because it promotes intolerance. 'Love one another, as I have loved you.'
-Ivory
(end sixth message)
Why would you say the FW promotes intolerance? IF the historical info. is accurate -- and I do realize that is an IF -- the point is to identify deception about why Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Quran in his library. In light of the seafaring situation of that day, it is far more likely that the wisdom he hoped to gain from the book was for protection of the economic interests of the United States than to accept the Quran's teachings in the more positive way implied by Congressman Ellison.
Also about intolerance, is it intolerant to say that Christians butchered people in the Crusades? That IS an historical FACT, sickened though we are about it. So, if the Muslim pirating situation was true, why is it intolerant to say so?
Oh, and I have to ask one more question, about 'love one another as I have loved you.' I really don't know what Jesus would do about dangers to our nation; but I can't quite think that, if He were in a military or political leadership position, He would just let another power come in and slaughter us. Do you think Christians should be Pacifists? I'm not sure where I stand on that issue, so I would love to hear your thoughts.
Love, Aunt Bev
(end seventh message)
The reason that I say that this FW promotes intolerance is why these things are being discussed. The point was not to identify deception about why Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Quran. It is trying to say that we should take a cue from Thomas Jefferson and aggressively eradicate Muslims in order to protect ourselves. The information may be accurate, but it is put forth in an extremely prejudicial light. It is akin to using the crusades as proof that Christians want to forcibly convert or slaughter all other peoples. Besides we have gone way beyond defending ourselves now. I don't think that Jesus would condone something like the perpetual warfare that we have been hearing about on the news.
-Ivory