Sirens: The Underground Influence of Georgette Heyer
I had a hard time keeping up, so forgive any errors! This was a great, energetic panel, and I was really glad I happened to have brought The Masqueraders with me so that I could immediately start rereading it.
The Underground Influence of Georgette Heyer
Panelists: Alaya Dawn Johnson, Delia Sherman, Caroline Stevermer, Nancy Werlin (moderator)
The classic regency romance novels of Georgette Heyer have not only had an extraordinary influence on romance novels, but also on fantasy. We see an overt bow to Heyer in Lois McMaster Bujold's A Civil Campaign, but if we look, we will also find many more nods-both conscious and unconscious-in fantasy courtship plots and in world-building, especially when authors imagine societal structures and manners. This panel will theorize about why Heyer is so influential and whether her influence has a dark side, and consider the ways in which we can see her influence on the most modern of fantasy novels.
NW: *reads panel description as intro and asks other panelists to introduce themselves and talk about how Heyer has influenced them*
ADJ: hasn’t written any books explicitly influenced by Heyer; discovered her books at a lateish age and “obsessed” about them; realized how many other books were in dialogue with Heyer, especially Regency romances which use that world as created by Heyer.
[Interesting little sidetrack here about how to pronounce Heyer’s name: DS looked it up in the Jane Aiken Hodge and found that although it was originally pronounced like “higher”, the family changed at some point to “hay-er”. NW declared the room a “pronunciation-free zone”, and everybody generally used “higher”.]
CS: Sorcery and Cecelia is “totally fan-fiction” of Heyer.
DS: read “obsessively” in teens and 20s; “even when I’m not influenced by her, I’m influenced by her”; big take-aways were the language and how individuals negotiate society.
NW: have read books over and over, some (The Grand Sophy, Venetia) are on her comfort shelf.
NW: Let’s begin by talking about the courtship plot.
ADJ: likes that Heyer often takes her time in getting to the main characters; by the time you get to them, you’ve seen them through other character’s eyes and have opinions; the use of third person omni helps here, because you can’t quite tell what they’re thinking and how things are going to happen
CS: Heyer can convince me that there’s a chance that things might not work out.
DS: favorites are where the courtship isn’t the main plot, where you see how each character moves in his or her own world; also that the heroines aren’t perfect and can be plain or shy (e.g., the heroine of The Convenient Marriage has what sounds like a unibrow)
NW: Which novel is your favorite and why?
DS: growing up, it was The Grand Sophy; as an adult, A Civil Contract with a side nod to Venetia
CS: originally, The Grand Sophy; as an adult, The Talisman Ring (which has two couples, one older)
ADJ: The Grand Sophy was the gateway drug, also loves An Infamous Army, with Heyer’s giant crush on Wellington and long battle of Waterloo description, and a heroine who’s brazen and “sexually forward”; also Sylvester
NW: *notes that Sylvester features a lady author*
DS: "Do you notice that mostly we’re talking about women?"
NW: The Duke of Avon! These Old Shades, an ur-hero: powerful, wealthy, blistering in sarcasm, high-heeled shoes and jewelry; heroine dresses as a boy, which the reader doesn’t know until after the hero has figured it out; December-May romance, “amoral in many of the same ways” (DS); “tremendously moving” (NW)
NW: other favorite is The Grand Sophy, which leads right into the dark underside discussion: anti-Semitism, classism
CS: heroine of TGS has agency and “social dash”, ignores strictures; the pawnbroker scene [which is terribly anti-Semitic and can turn readers off Heyer] is a shortcut to show the dash but doesn’t show the slightest bit of recognition of the stereotyping
DS: racism and classism really prevalent in GH’s mysteries (wooden characters, complex plot); she was an “extremely rigid woman of her time”; can look at what she did well, although even seen as a woman of her time, she overstepped boundaries
ADJ: wouldn’t blame anyone for turning away; racism is in small chunks, classism is much larger and more evident; it’s a closed world, in which only a certain kind of person has a story good enough to be told and everyone else is almost an NPC
NW: GH’s dark side has an enormous influence on other Regencies: all have noblemen, and authors who want to have middle-class heroes have to self-publish (Courtney Milan); this is the power of Heyer, not Austen, who didn’t write about lords and ladies and London seasons
CS: It’s a closed world like a Lego playset.
ADJ: I love the way she dresses men.
DS: some of Heyer’s language is real, some made-up; you can tell when reading a Regency who’s only read Heyer and not done any actual research (for example, she created the Pantheon Bazaar, where characters could buy beautiful things for only a little; other writers have used that not realizing it wasn’t a real place)
CS: In TOS, “the hero and heroine can do anything as long as the real world never finds out about it.”
DS: lots of social mores are built on hypocrisy: do what you want as long as you don’t get caught
ADJ: *recommends Bee Ridgway, The River of No Return* - playing in the fanfic of Georgette Heyer
ADJ: Heyer would get annoyed that other people were copying her language: e.g., she had discovered the phrase “to make a cake of oneself” in an obscure source and then found other authors were using that phrase in imitation of her; people should go “back to the well” and research for themselves
DS: looser class structures in The Foundling, which has a very feminized hero, a young duke who goes out on his own without a calling card (proof of identity) and has to use his wits to get along and grow up; likes this type better than the older, more experienced heroes
NW: Frederica has an older hero who’s set in his ways until he meets the heroine and her family (she’s the oldest sister) and falls in love in them; he had been in danger of calcifying
[At this point, Ellen Kushner got up from the audience and asked to be a guest interviewer.]
EK: *talks about GH as the Tolkien of the Regency world* What’s the appeal?
CS: “My favorite character in all of media, London.”
NW: GH helped her get through a tough year in school, is “in the bones of my reading self”, novels were “better friends than any person”; like fantasy, they took her out of the real world to somewhere where smart girls are appreciated and loved; “I found them when I needed friends”
ADJ: likes to do mental playacting of her imaginary self, but it’s hard to really imagine herself there; enjoyment has a certain remorse [?? can't read my own handwriting here]; loves the most the banter and the 3rd person omniscient POV - “the characters have the privilege of being hilarious with each other all the time”
DS: The worldbuilding is what appeals to lots of fantasy writers; it’s a thin veneer (no real economics, for instance), but absolute at the same time - like fantasy, the veneer is so attractive you go with it; the language is delicious
Q&A:
[audience member]: Can you recommend fantasy with a strong Heyer influence other than Lois McMaster Bujold or Sorcery and Cecelia?
- Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell
- Alexei Panshin, Star Well, The Thurb Revolution, Masque World: “whackjob fusion” of Georgette Heyer and James Bond
- Zelazny’s Amber series, in manners and banter
- Sharon Lee and Steve Miller’s Liaden books
- Freedom and Necessity, by Steven Brust and Emma Bull
- Joan Aiken’s Wolves Chronicles
EK: My favorite quote about Heyer is by Cynthia Heimel (Sex Tips for Girls) in an interview on New Year’s Eve, who said she wanted to spend NYE curled up with Heyer and a blanket and called Heyer “Bertie Wooster for girls”.
NW: *tells anecdote about A.S. Byatt, who was asked at a college interview what she thought of Heyer; she lied and said that she felt Heyer was trash, whereupon she didn’t get the place at college because she was too much of a snob*
[audience member]: I’ve never read any Heyer. [collective gasp from crowd] What would you recommend as a good gateway drug?
DS: What kind of hero do you like?
NW: Do you like a hint of danger?
Generally the consensus was for Sylvester, then Venetia. ADJ recommended Faro’s Daughter for hijinks, NW recommended Pistols for Two (short stories) as having tastes of all the different styles, and DS went with The Masqueraders.
ETA: Sorry this is so long and messy! I was afraid that if I edited and polished it, I'd end up taking so long I'd never post it at all.
This entry was originally posted at http://gwyneira.dreamwidth.org/225910.html. There are
comments on that post. Please comment here or there, your choice.
The Underground Influence of Georgette Heyer
Panelists: Alaya Dawn Johnson, Delia Sherman, Caroline Stevermer, Nancy Werlin (moderator)
The classic regency romance novels of Georgette Heyer have not only had an extraordinary influence on romance novels, but also on fantasy. We see an overt bow to Heyer in Lois McMaster Bujold's A Civil Campaign, but if we look, we will also find many more nods-both conscious and unconscious-in fantasy courtship plots and in world-building, especially when authors imagine societal structures and manners. This panel will theorize about why Heyer is so influential and whether her influence has a dark side, and consider the ways in which we can see her influence on the most modern of fantasy novels.
NW: *reads panel description as intro and asks other panelists to introduce themselves and talk about how Heyer has influenced them*
ADJ: hasn’t written any books explicitly influenced by Heyer; discovered her books at a lateish age and “obsessed” about them; realized how many other books were in dialogue with Heyer, especially Regency romances which use that world as created by Heyer.
[Interesting little sidetrack here about how to pronounce Heyer’s name: DS looked it up in the Jane Aiken Hodge and found that although it was originally pronounced like “higher”, the family changed at some point to “hay-er”. NW declared the room a “pronunciation-free zone”, and everybody generally used “higher”.]
CS: Sorcery and Cecelia is “totally fan-fiction” of Heyer.
DS: read “obsessively” in teens and 20s; “even when I’m not influenced by her, I’m influenced by her”; big take-aways were the language and how individuals negotiate society.
NW: have read books over and over, some (The Grand Sophy, Venetia) are on her comfort shelf.
NW: Let’s begin by talking about the courtship plot.
ADJ: likes that Heyer often takes her time in getting to the main characters; by the time you get to them, you’ve seen them through other character’s eyes and have opinions; the use of third person omni helps here, because you can’t quite tell what they’re thinking and how things are going to happen
CS: Heyer can convince me that there’s a chance that things might not work out.
DS: favorites are where the courtship isn’t the main plot, where you see how each character moves in his or her own world; also that the heroines aren’t perfect and can be plain or shy (e.g., the heroine of The Convenient Marriage has what sounds like a unibrow)
NW: Which novel is your favorite and why?
DS: growing up, it was The Grand Sophy; as an adult, A Civil Contract with a side nod to Venetia
CS: originally, The Grand Sophy; as an adult, The Talisman Ring (which has two couples, one older)
ADJ: The Grand Sophy was the gateway drug, also loves An Infamous Army, with Heyer’s giant crush on Wellington and long battle of Waterloo description, and a heroine who’s brazen and “sexually forward”; also Sylvester
NW: *notes that Sylvester features a lady author*
DS: "Do you notice that mostly we’re talking about women?"
NW: The Duke of Avon! These Old Shades, an ur-hero: powerful, wealthy, blistering in sarcasm, high-heeled shoes and jewelry; heroine dresses as a boy, which the reader doesn’t know until after the hero has figured it out; December-May romance, “amoral in many of the same ways” (DS); “tremendously moving” (NW)
NW: other favorite is The Grand Sophy, which leads right into the dark underside discussion: anti-Semitism, classism
CS: heroine of TGS has agency and “social dash”, ignores strictures; the pawnbroker scene [which is terribly anti-Semitic and can turn readers off Heyer] is a shortcut to show the dash but doesn’t show the slightest bit of recognition of the stereotyping
DS: racism and classism really prevalent in GH’s mysteries (wooden characters, complex plot); she was an “extremely rigid woman of her time”; can look at what she did well, although even seen as a woman of her time, she overstepped boundaries
ADJ: wouldn’t blame anyone for turning away; racism is in small chunks, classism is much larger and more evident; it’s a closed world, in which only a certain kind of person has a story good enough to be told and everyone else is almost an NPC
NW: GH’s dark side has an enormous influence on other Regencies: all have noblemen, and authors who want to have middle-class heroes have to self-publish (Courtney Milan); this is the power of Heyer, not Austen, who didn’t write about lords and ladies and London seasons
CS: It’s a closed world like a Lego playset.
ADJ: I love the way she dresses men.
DS: some of Heyer’s language is real, some made-up; you can tell when reading a Regency who’s only read Heyer and not done any actual research (for example, she created the Pantheon Bazaar, where characters could buy beautiful things for only a little; other writers have used that not realizing it wasn’t a real place)
CS: In TOS, “the hero and heroine can do anything as long as the real world never finds out about it.”
DS: lots of social mores are built on hypocrisy: do what you want as long as you don’t get caught
ADJ: *recommends Bee Ridgway, The River of No Return* - playing in the fanfic of Georgette Heyer
ADJ: Heyer would get annoyed that other people were copying her language: e.g., she had discovered the phrase “to make a cake of oneself” in an obscure source and then found other authors were using that phrase in imitation of her; people should go “back to the well” and research for themselves
DS: looser class structures in The Foundling, which has a very feminized hero, a young duke who goes out on his own without a calling card (proof of identity) and has to use his wits to get along and grow up; likes this type better than the older, more experienced heroes
NW: Frederica has an older hero who’s set in his ways until he meets the heroine and her family (she’s the oldest sister) and falls in love in them; he had been in danger of calcifying
[At this point, Ellen Kushner got up from the audience and asked to be a guest interviewer.]
EK: *talks about GH as the Tolkien of the Regency world* What’s the appeal?
CS: “My favorite character in all of media, London.”
NW: GH helped her get through a tough year in school, is “in the bones of my reading self”, novels were “better friends than any person”; like fantasy, they took her out of the real world to somewhere where smart girls are appreciated and loved; “I found them when I needed friends”
ADJ: likes to do mental playacting of her imaginary self, but it’s hard to really imagine herself there; enjoyment has a certain remorse [?? can't read my own handwriting here]; loves the most the banter and the 3rd person omniscient POV - “the characters have the privilege of being hilarious with each other all the time”
DS: The worldbuilding is what appeals to lots of fantasy writers; it’s a thin veneer (no real economics, for instance), but absolute at the same time - like fantasy, the veneer is so attractive you go with it; the language is delicious
Q&A:
[audience member]: Can you recommend fantasy with a strong Heyer influence other than Lois McMaster Bujold or Sorcery and Cecelia?
- Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell
- Alexei Panshin, Star Well, The Thurb Revolution, Masque World: “whackjob fusion” of Georgette Heyer and James Bond
- Zelazny’s Amber series, in manners and banter
- Sharon Lee and Steve Miller’s Liaden books
- Freedom and Necessity, by Steven Brust and Emma Bull
- Joan Aiken’s Wolves Chronicles
EK: My favorite quote about Heyer is by Cynthia Heimel (Sex Tips for Girls) in an interview on New Year’s Eve, who said she wanted to spend NYE curled up with Heyer and a blanket and called Heyer “Bertie Wooster for girls”.
NW: *tells anecdote about A.S. Byatt, who was asked at a college interview what she thought of Heyer; she lied and said that she felt Heyer was trash, whereupon she didn’t get the place at college because she was too much of a snob*
[audience member]: I’ve never read any Heyer. [collective gasp from crowd] What would you recommend as a good gateway drug?
DS: What kind of hero do you like?
NW: Do you like a hint of danger?
Generally the consensus was for Sylvester, then Venetia. ADJ recommended Faro’s Daughter for hijinks, NW recommended Pistols for Two (short stories) as having tastes of all the different styles, and DS went with The Masqueraders.
ETA: Sorry this is so long and messy! I was afraid that if I edited and polished it, I'd end up taking so long I'd never post it at all.
This entry was originally posted at http://gwyneira.dreamwidth.org/225910.html. There are
comments on that post. Please comment here or there, your choice.