Changed Men: Nicholas, Bobby and John

[hearseeno]

Has anybody here, seen my old friend John?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
He freed a lot of people, but it seem the good, they die young.
I just looked around and he's gone.
Abraham, Martin and John - by Dick Holler

Some interesting parallels being drawn in these first few episodes of Season Five.  It struck me that both Nick and Bobby are being

Comments

[isaacsapphire]

Yeah, I'm with you here. SPN is very good at doing internal symbolism and self-references (one of the things I love about the show) and the stuff with Nick is very interesting, although I'm not sure what it means

[hearseeno]

the stuff with Nick is very interesting, although I'm not sure what it means.

Yeah, I'm not sure either, but, I agree, they seem to do a lot with playing around with the idea of what makes a monster, where is that dividing line.

That crib sure looks a lot like the original one. I had to look really closely to find out that it's not.

[pinkphoenix1985]

So interesting!

This in addition to the tidbit from a very SPN Xmas about how Bobby had originally gave Sam the amulet to give to John just makes me go hmm interesting...

[shorofsky]

Maybe John wanted the amulet to seek out God to get Him to give Mary back?

I wondered why Bobby didn't instantly remember about the charm he'd given to Sam all those years ago and it kindda makes me wonder about Sam's role in all this. Since Bobby gave the charm to Sam to give to John, instead of Bobby holding on to it until he'd see John next, there must be something about Sam that's important. I mean, Sam's the younger and presumably he'd be more likely to lose a charm than the older brother who's devoted to his father and would never not do his bidding.

What made Sam defy Bobby's instructions and give it to Dean?

[hearseeno]

I wondered why Bobby didn't instantly remember about the charm

His lack of reaction also made me wonder about Bobby's role. If Bobby had acted all surprised, then I would have come down on the side of "guess God is working in mysterious ways through Bobby." But he didn't, so now I'm left to wonder if Bobby and the writers forgot about needing to account for his role in the amulet or if there's something more going on.

[isaacsapphire]

Do we have an approximate date for Bobby chasing John off with a shotgun? Because if that happened right after, that would explain him not knowing.

And some charms are said to require being gifted or found to work.

[shorofsky]

Show is trying to make us think it's all been planned like this for a very long time by weaving together threads from all seasons now. I trust Krip had an overall arc plan from the get go, but I also have a feeling that a lot of what's been thrown in for good measure has been purely coincidental

[hearseeno]

The visual clues and visually reaching back by using the same colors and elements in parallel shots is brilliant, but hardly evidence that he had it all planned out ahead - in fact it suggests to me that he didn't, but that as the show's evolved, he's gotten a clearer idea of what his characters might accomplish and thus has a clearer notion of how to tie everything up in a nice bow here in S5

Oh, I completely agree.

I think that the use of visual imagery was fairly muddied in the first season or so, consistent with the MotW being the primary driver of the narrative. It wasn't until Season 2 that we start seeing visual imagery exploding and becoming refined into consistent patterns of use across episodes. That same process coincides with the mytharc driving the narrative forth across episodes. Now there's a this visual vocabulary on which to draw to bring new threads into the mytharc as the writers discover them.

[bowtrunckle]

Hi, sweets! Great observations and nicely drawn parallels. I've also been wondering about the history of the amulet and what (if anything) Bobby knew/knows about it. Before I thought it likely had to do with demons (maybe Lucifer) being that Bobby is a demon expert, but clearly I was WRONG. :)

Also, those 2 pictures of the blue terrycloth robes is heartbreaking. Oh, the despondency and resignation in John's face and Bobby's posture. Someone give them hugs!

[hearseeno]

those 2 pictures of the blue terrycloth robes is heartbreaking

That robe reminds me strongly of my own father's robe (though his was a bright yellow - hey, it was the 70's, what can I say).

Isn't it, though. And Dean's reaction, all defensive "yeah I can't even go there" and think about another father sacrificing himself for his son.

Castiel broke through that denial very nicely, thank you very much.

Geez, everybody is just so very broken in these episodes. Doesn't leave much for each other.

[bowtrunckle]

everybody is just so very broken in these episodes. Doesn't leave much for each other.

And that's where I think Dean currently is. Finally he's looking out for himself instead of always putting Sam's needs first. While I can wholly get behind this after so many seasons of Dean's self-esteem issues, it still feels weird and almost not!Dean (even though it is Dean). I guess it's hard to break old expectations. But I'm excited for character evolution and also to see how Sam deals with his independence, which is what he's been raging for since he was a teenager.

[hugemind]

Oh, the blue robe. *sadface* It'll be interesting to see if the parallels between John and Bobby end at Dean's reaction. John ended up making a deal with the YED and giving Dean a massive guilt complex, so I kind of hope that Bobby doesn't do anything that would have the same effect on Dean.

And if the amulet really is God-detector, then I guess that ruins the theory that Bobby=God. Darn it.