Am I the only one who keeps typing HBO?
Let's talk Lily ships and how a die-hard Lily/James shipper like me has begun to see something there that wasn't there before. Beauty and the Beast, eh? Oh, you don't know the half of it ;)
How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
Children's Interview in Edinburgh, July 16th 2005, underlined emphasis mine.
Oh. Oh, yes.
Overheard conversations between Lily and an unidentified boy.
Lily's Potions genius.
Snape's Worst Memory, and all that it entails.
"Stand aside, you silly girl."
The big shocker we'll learn about Lily in book 7.
Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this.
Severus/Lily is a pretty popular ship, so bits of this have probably been theorised before (I dunno for sure, because I'm an L/J shipper and avoid all other Lily or James ships like the plague.) Sorry about that. However, for me personally many old arguments can be seen in a new light now. I didn't believe in Lily/Snape before, but it has never been more likely than in this strange post-HBP world.
So.
Petunia overhears a conversation between Lily and 'that awful boy'. To the reader, it is suspicious enough that the boy is never identified, but what's more in the interview quoted above JKR is very obviously hiding something. Once again, she avoids mentioning the boy's name, leaving us to assume it's James like Harry did in OotP.
"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly... OotP, Chapter 1
Well. Because she doesn't mean your mum and dad, Harry, but Jo doesn't want us to know that just yet. For the sake of plot development, if nothing else, I think the most likely boy Petunia was talking about is the awful, the greasy, the mean, the nasty, and the apparently so very traitorous and evil, Severus Snape. He's the only choice.
So what was Snape doing explaining Dementors to Lily? And in a place where Petunia could overhear?
I think they must've been aquaintances. And this overheard conversation isn't the only clue to that... there is the Potions link.
Quite a number of people have pointed to Lily's Potions skill as a sign that Snape was helping her somehow, probably lending her his textbook every so often. Now, I think that's jumping the gun a little as she may have been good on her own merit. But the point is, why else would JKR include Slughorn's numerous claims that Lily Evans was terribly good at Potions, if not to provide a handy link to Severus?
Yes, that's all well and good, but if we follow the textbook idea through to its conclusion, we see that Snape must've ultimately felt very betrayed by her. And angry. Oh, was he ever angry.
Because, as Remus tells us, loads of people knew and used the Levicorpus spell.
And, as the Half-Blood Prince tells us, it is an unspoken spell. How did everyone learn it if it's unspoken? It's not like they could've overheard it, eh?
Someone else, on a post I can't find now (friendsfriends?) [ETA, see below], suggested that Lily left the book sitting somewhere, (I doubt she would've deliberately passed it around). Someone found it, read it, thought whoa, and shared the info. Soon James and co started hexing Snape with his own spells. Snape was Very Very Angry. Cue the pensieve scene (by the way, note how Snape uses Septumsempra on James, hee, I love overlooked details)....
Lily arrives to defend her friend. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lily, OotP, chapter 28
Snape is furious and wants nothing to do with her. He is rash, calls her a Mudblood, and she reacts coolly and rushes of, but not before calling James and Snape as bad as each other. And isn't that interesting, comparing Snape to the man she eventually marries? It's the sort of throwaway HP line that only becomes obvious foreshadowing in retrospect.
... hm.
I suspect Snape and Lily had already fallen out by this stage, but calling her a Mudblood seems to have been the final straw for Lily. Perhaps she had already tried to explain the whole Potions book mistake to Snape, but he, as we know, is not very open to hearing excuses. And so she now wipes her hands of him, and leaves him to James and Sirius.
It's not Snape's Worst Memory because of what James does, though I'm sure that's a big part of it. Rather, I think it's the sense of betrayal, of having his own spells used against him by someone he hates, of believing those spells were given to James by someone he quite liked, that elevates this incident above all other fights he's had with James.
Why, after all, did he choose to put THAT one in the pensieve, when we know he had many other duels with James? I now think it must've been the Lily factor, something which Lily/Severus shippers have probably been saying for two years, in addition to the overwhelming humiliation of it all.
But it was years after the pensieve scene that came the final 'betrayal' of Lily. If Snape did love her, it must've angered him royally to see her marry James of all people. Later still, having to look at Harry every day, as a constant reminder of her marriage and her death, can't have helped either.
Onwards to Exhibit B. One thing that bothers me about the 'Snape: Good or Evil' debate is the overwhelming lameness of his reason for 'leaving' Voldemort. Boo hoo, I passed info to the Dark Lord and made him go after the Potters, boo. As we all know, Snape despised James and wouldn't lose any sleep if he snuffed it (though I wonder how Snape's life debt to James would've complicated matters?). It seems completely unbelievable that Dumbledore would've accepted this reason, as Harry and everyone else in the hospital wing agreed.
But Lily on the other hand... good!Snape may have honestly regretted her death, if he once loved her or still did, and bad!Snape may've simply sold Dumbledore a sob story that he did. Ah, Albus, who believes in the power of love more than anything else, could've accepted a redeemed Snape if he was in mourning for the love of his life, a woman whose death he had a hand in.
In addition, we've yet to discover exactly why Voldemort ordered Lily to stand aside. It makes little-to-no sense that he would spare her, a Muggleborn who has stood in opposition to him for so long.
But one of the things we learn in HBP is that fandom has by-and-large been mistaken when we assumed Lucius or Bellatrix was Voldemort's most trusted. In HBP, it's none other than Snape -- "You are the Dark Lord's favourite, his most trusted advisor ... will you speak to him, persuade him -?" Narcissa, HBP, Chapter 2
If Snape was equally trusted in 1981, I think he could've requested that Voldemort spare Lily, and I think Voldemort would've granted his request, so long as Lily cooperated. Perhaps he convinced Voldemort that she could make a powerful ally. Perhaps he convinced him that she had info Voldemort could use. Perhaps he simply offered Voldemort something or someone else in exchange, I dunno. The point is that Snape could well be the reason Voldemort was fully prepared to spare Lily.
And why? Well, maybe Snape just wanted to save her, although he isn't the sort to indulge in dreams of happy-ever-after. Then again, maybe he thought that he, and not his Dark Lord, should be the one to kill her. It's a darker thought for the evil!Snape brigade, but he is a terribly twisted person, holds grudges for a very long time, anything's possible for the man who murdered Dumbledore. So it could go either way; his reasons for possibly asking Lily be spared really depends on whether Snape is good or evil.
So where does this leave him?
In love with Lily, turns against Voldemort in revenge for the death of possibly the only woman he'd ever loved (among other reasons, I'm sure)?
Or furious with Lily forevermore, joins Voldemort partially for vengeance against Muggles and Muggleborns like she and his father? Plus, he just likes Dark Arts.
And did Snape really love her anyway?
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7.
A 1999 radio interview, underlined emphasis mine.
Yes. He probably did love her.
Snape was apparently unpopular, and probably lonely. By all appearances, he didn't have many friends in his own year (Lucius being older, Avery etc much older, the Lestranges older [?], Bellatrix older, though Narcissa and Regulus (slightly younger) are both possibilities). Yet here was a girl who reached out. I think they were friends of a sort, fairly close but not overly chummy despite Severus' deeper feelings. When he thought she'd broken their friendship, he was furious beyond anything words can express. Well, except one word: 'Mudblood' probably said all that needed to be said.
It's also entirely possible that his feelings were not unrequited. HBP shows us in technicolour the random relationship-jumping of adolescence, and MWPP era was no different I'm sure. Lily may have liked Severus for a time, before they collapsed in spectacular fashion and she fell for a head-deflated James instead.
Remember, the power of love and compassion is one of the biggest themes of the series. Such a 'twist' in the tale as Snape Loved Lily would not be out of place, however cliche it may it seem now (to me, anyway).
What could this mean for the future?
I dunno, but I'll make some wild guesses.
IF this is correct and Snape at least liked Lily, IF he is a 'good' guy, and IF he and Dumbledore had an arrangement, then Harry, like his mother, could eventually show some measure of compassion toward him. I believe Harry is his mother's son, after all. If Lily had've walked in on crying Draco, she would've felt pity for him too (whereas a young James would've hexed him while his back was turned, internally mocking him all the while).
Harry, like Lily, may see good!Snape for what he is. The single most conflicted, bitter and tragic character in this whole series imo, and quite possibly the most important player in the war apart from Harry himself.
And maybe Harry will even see that it may be too late for Snape, but it is not too late for Draco :-?
On the other hand, if Snape is Ever So Evil, he'll surely get what's coming to him, regardless of who he may or may not have loved in the distant past.
Who knows? We shall see.
I must admit, IF this is true (and I have the worst track record - any theories I believe almost always turn out to be completely wrong *g*), I'm scared it'll be all Mills and Boon a la some of the romance in HBP. I would really rather Snape was evil than besottedly moping after dead!Lily. Hell, I would rather Snape was dead than that, so if any of the above is accurate here's to hoping it's better handled than H/G et al.
:)
ETA: Ahha! riibu was the first to discuss the possibility of Snape's Worst Memory, Lily and the potions book here.
Hmm! I've to go catch up on all your posts now :D I love all the speculation at the moment. Even if we're all totally wrong, who cares, because new canon new canon new canon horrah!
Also, I'm very much looking forward to the two hour MuggleNet-TLC interview that will be posted today. Should be fab.
How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.
Children's Interview in Edinburgh, July 16th 2005, underlined emphasis mine.
Oh. Oh, yes.
Overheard conversations between Lily and an unidentified boy.
Lily's Potions genius.
Snape's Worst Memory, and all that it entails.
"Stand aside, you silly girl."
The big shocker we'll learn about Lily in book 7.
Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this.
Severus/Lily is a pretty popular ship, so bits of this have probably been theorised before (I dunno for sure, because I'm an L/J shipper and avoid all other Lily or James ships like the plague.) Sorry about that. However, for me personally many old arguments can be seen in a new light now. I didn't believe in Lily/Snape before, but it has never been more likely than in this strange post-HBP world.
So.
Petunia overhears a conversation between Lily and 'that awful boy'. To the reader, it is suspicious enough that the boy is never identified, but what's more in the interview quoted above JKR is very obviously hiding something. Once again, she avoids mentioning the boy's name, leaving us to assume it's James like Harry did in OotP.
"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you use their names?" said Harry loudly... OotP, Chapter 1
Well. Because she doesn't mean your mum and dad, Harry, but Jo doesn't want us to know that just yet. For the sake of plot development, if nothing else, I think the most likely boy Petunia was talking about is the awful, the greasy, the mean, the nasty, and the apparently so very traitorous and evil, Severus Snape. He's the only choice.
So what was Snape doing explaining Dementors to Lily? And in a place where Petunia could overhear?
I think they must've been aquaintances. And this overheard conversation isn't the only clue to that... there is the Potions link.
Quite a number of people have pointed to Lily's Potions skill as a sign that Snape was helping her somehow, probably lending her his textbook every so often. Now, I think that's jumping the gun a little as she may have been good on her own merit. But the point is, why else would JKR include Slughorn's numerous claims that Lily Evans was terribly good at Potions, if not to provide a handy link to Severus?
Yes, that's all well and good, but if we follow the textbook idea through to its conclusion, we see that Snape must've ultimately felt very betrayed by her. And angry. Oh, was he ever angry.
Because, as Remus tells us, loads of people knew and used the Levicorpus spell.
And, as the Half-Blood Prince tells us, it is an unspoken spell. How did everyone learn it if it's unspoken? It's not like they could've overheard it, eh?
Someone else, on a post I can't find now (friendsfriends?) [ETA, see below], suggested that Lily left the book sitting somewhere, (I doubt she would've deliberately passed it around). Someone found it, read it, thought whoa, and shared the info. Soon James and co started hexing Snape with his own spells. Snape was Very Very Angry. Cue the pensieve scene (by the way, note how Snape uses Septumsempra on James, hee, I love overlooked details)....
Lily arrives to defend her friend. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lily, OotP, chapter 28
Snape is furious and wants nothing to do with her. He is rash, calls her a Mudblood, and she reacts coolly and rushes of, but not before calling James and Snape as bad as each other. And isn't that interesting, comparing Snape to the man she eventually marries? It's the sort of throwaway HP line that only becomes obvious foreshadowing in retrospect.
... hm.
I suspect Snape and Lily had already fallen out by this stage, but calling her a Mudblood seems to have been the final straw for Lily. Perhaps she had already tried to explain the whole Potions book mistake to Snape, but he, as we know, is not very open to hearing excuses. And so she now wipes her hands of him, and leaves him to James and Sirius.
It's not Snape's Worst Memory because of what James does, though I'm sure that's a big part of it. Rather, I think it's the sense of betrayal, of having his own spells used against him by someone he hates, of believing those spells were given to James by someone he quite liked, that elevates this incident above all other fights he's had with James.
Why, after all, did he choose to put THAT one in the pensieve, when we know he had many other duels with James? I now think it must've been the Lily factor, something which Lily/Severus shippers have probably been saying for two years, in addition to the overwhelming humiliation of it all.
But it was years after the pensieve scene that came the final 'betrayal' of Lily. If Snape did love her, it must've angered him royally to see her marry James of all people. Later still, having to look at Harry every day, as a constant reminder of her marriage and her death, can't have helped either.
Onwards to Exhibit B. One thing that bothers me about the 'Snape: Good or Evil' debate is the overwhelming lameness of his reason for 'leaving' Voldemort. Boo hoo, I passed info to the Dark Lord and made him go after the Potters, boo. As we all know, Snape despised James and wouldn't lose any sleep if he snuffed it (though I wonder how Snape's life debt to James would've complicated matters?). It seems completely unbelievable that Dumbledore would've accepted this reason, as Harry and everyone else in the hospital wing agreed.
But Lily on the other hand... good!Snape may have honestly regretted her death, if he once loved her or still did, and bad!Snape may've simply sold Dumbledore a sob story that he did. Ah, Albus, who believes in the power of love more than anything else, could've accepted a redeemed Snape if he was in mourning for the love of his life, a woman whose death he had a hand in.
In addition, we've yet to discover exactly why Voldemort ordered Lily to stand aside. It makes little-to-no sense that he would spare her, a Muggleborn who has stood in opposition to him for so long.
But one of the things we learn in HBP is that fandom has by-and-large been mistaken when we assumed Lucius or Bellatrix was Voldemort's most trusted. In HBP, it's none other than Snape -- "You are the Dark Lord's favourite, his most trusted advisor ... will you speak to him, persuade him -?" Narcissa, HBP, Chapter 2
If Snape was equally trusted in 1981, I think he could've requested that Voldemort spare Lily, and I think Voldemort would've granted his request, so long as Lily cooperated. Perhaps he convinced Voldemort that she could make a powerful ally. Perhaps he convinced him that she had info Voldemort could use. Perhaps he simply offered Voldemort something or someone else in exchange, I dunno. The point is that Snape could well be the reason Voldemort was fully prepared to spare Lily.
And why? Well, maybe Snape just wanted to save her, although he isn't the sort to indulge in dreams of happy-ever-after. Then again, maybe he thought that he, and not his Dark Lord, should be the one to kill her. It's a darker thought for the evil!Snape brigade, but he is a terribly twisted person, holds grudges for a very long time, anything's possible for the man who murdered Dumbledore. So it could go either way; his reasons for possibly asking Lily be spared really depends on whether Snape is good or evil.
So where does this leave him?
In love with Lily, turns against Voldemort in revenge for the death of possibly the only woman he'd ever loved (among other reasons, I'm sure)?
Or furious with Lily forevermore, joins Voldemort partially for vengeance against Muggles and Muggleborns like she and his father? Plus, he just likes Dark Arts.
And did Snape really love her anyway?
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
JKR: He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7.
A 1999 radio interview, underlined emphasis mine.
Yes. He probably did love her.
Snape was apparently unpopular, and probably lonely. By all appearances, he didn't have many friends in his own year (Lucius being older, Avery etc much older, the Lestranges older [?], Bellatrix older, though Narcissa and Regulus (slightly younger) are both possibilities). Yet here was a girl who reached out. I think they were friends of a sort, fairly close but not overly chummy despite Severus' deeper feelings. When he thought she'd broken their friendship, he was furious beyond anything words can express. Well, except one word: 'Mudblood' probably said all that needed to be said.
It's also entirely possible that his feelings were not unrequited. HBP shows us in technicolour the random relationship-jumping of adolescence, and MWPP era was no different I'm sure. Lily may have liked Severus for a time, before they collapsed in spectacular fashion and she fell for a head-deflated James instead.
Remember, the power of love and compassion is one of the biggest themes of the series. Such a 'twist' in the tale as Snape Loved Lily would not be out of place, however cliche it may it seem now (to me, anyway).
What could this mean for the future?
I dunno, but I'll make some wild guesses.
IF this is correct and Snape at least liked Lily, IF he is a 'good' guy, and IF he and Dumbledore had an arrangement, then Harry, like his mother, could eventually show some measure of compassion toward him. I believe Harry is his mother's son, after all. If Lily had've walked in on crying Draco, she would've felt pity for him too (whereas a young James would've hexed him while his back was turned, internally mocking him all the while).
Harry, like Lily, may see good!Snape for what he is. The single most conflicted, bitter and tragic character in this whole series imo, and quite possibly the most important player in the war apart from Harry himself.
And maybe Harry will even see that it may be too late for Snape, but it is not too late for Draco :-?
On the other hand, if Snape is Ever So Evil, he'll surely get what's coming to him, regardless of who he may or may not have loved in the distant past.
Who knows? We shall see.
I must admit, IF this is true (and I have the worst track record - any theories I believe almost always turn out to be completely wrong *g*), I'm scared it'll be all Mills and Boon a la some of the romance in HBP. I would really rather Snape was evil than besottedly moping after dead!Lily. Hell, I would rather Snape was dead than that, so if any of the above is accurate here's to hoping it's better handled than H/G et al.
:)
ETA: Ahha! riibu was the first to discuss the possibility of Snape's Worst Memory, Lily and the potions book here.
Hmm! I've to go catch up on all your posts now :D I love all the speculation at the moment. Even if we're all totally wrong, who cares, because new canon new canon new canon horrah!
Also, I'm very much looking forward to the two hour MuggleNet-TLC interview that will be posted today. Should be fab.