Re: TangentialthiebesFebruary 7 2006, 15:35:41 UTC
I'm just saying that I don't think it's considerably large. I think it is considerably tiny. I might even add an expletive befroe the adjective, if this were a spoken conversation
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Re: TangentialigniprimumFebruary 9 2006, 16:18:31 UTC
"Note that we do not expect the Man of Earth triad to make a lifetime of commitment."True, but that doesn't mean that we, as sponsors and local membership, can't expect their time with the OTO to entail commitment. In truth, the process of initiation and their experience in OTO would be utterly meaningless without it
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This is all nice and everything but I think one of the contributing issues are members in the Lovers and even Hermit Triad. If this is just aimed at new people in coming to the OTO, then I agree but not so much with the emphasis of treating Thelema like a religion.
All members of the I* includes all membership except the Minerval degree. My thrust here is that our entire membership needs to be brought up to speed before we can seriously expect to attract suitable people on any more than a random and accidental basis.
1) Members of the MOE are not called on to devote their life in service to the Order 2) Thelema wasn't born out of sterility. Thelema draws on Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Tantra, Buddhism, Taoismand other influences. It isn't a huge surprise that many would find it within their will to identify themself as a syncretic melding of Thelema and something else. I can't see why that would bother anyone nor can I see how that would inherently make one a less dedicated Thelemite. 3) Not everyone views Thelema as a religion. For some, it's a philosophy. 4) Every man and woman of full age (18 or more years old), free, and of good report, has an indefeasible right to the first three degrees of O.T.O.
"If every single initiate of the I* possessed these minimal traits, it would eliminate the need for a lot of argument, and a lot of controversial local policy."
Perhaps. However, it has been my experience that most people involved in religion will argue about the "policy" of a religion, while accepting the spritual aspects of the religion in agreement. That is to say, most Thelemites will argue how a Rite is to be performed, while most are in agreement about the need for a person to find her True Will.
I would also suggest that for most Thelemites, arguing the policy, is a process that will lead to acceptance and further understanding, so long as our current leaders are willing to engage in a meaningful interaction with the membership. It may not be a negative thing at all. Think of it as an opportunity to educate, rather than a debate to be won.
"Perhaps. However, it has been my experience that most people involved in religion will argue about the "policy" of a religion,"
Perhaps. However, if every initiate of the I* possessed the minimal traits I described above, our arguments would probably be much more productive, and the subjects probably would be much more edifying.
I mean, right now the subjects of our arguments are pretty shameful. Why should there be a question as to whether our material and organizational futures are important enough to make some reasonable but serious demands on the membership in terms of contribution and quality? The fact that there still is a question reflects very poorly on all of us.
Someday, I hope our arguments end up being about what to do with all the wealth and talent that we have accumulated, instead of whether wealth and talent are necessary.
Do you think you should have been accepted into the OTO as you were when you first began? Would you let in 'another you?'
I tend to think that the OTO is for the formation of people, not for the acceptance of the already perfect. I hope we look for potential.
For me, Thelema is about the liberation of ourselves and the world. Nothing in my initiations have made me think differently. Nothing in my initiations have made me think that I had to do things the same way as anyone else.
The OTO has provided me with sustenance and in return, I hope I've given something back. The EGC has not really resonated with me. The ritual hasn't given me what it promised. As a Scientific Illuminist, I just can't get down with that.
So what does a Thelemite like me do when someone says I'm not good enough to be in the OTO?
Re: A few questionsigniprimumFebruary 8 2006, 22:11:16 UTC
Bear in mind throughout this that I am approaching this subject as a concerned individual. I am not trying to beat my chest as some kind of authority, nor am I trying to drive any changes in any policies. To me, this is a cultural thing, and policy will never be able to touch it, which is one of the reasons I think it is such a problem for the future of OTO. Anyway, with that, I'll respond to your points
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Re: A few questionsgallows_brotherFebruary 8 2006, 22:49:20 UTC
Indeed.
The OTO as it is now isn't something I would have joined, I think. But I have the benefit/curse of nostalgia and I have seen the OTO change around me. When I joined it, we seemed to be on the same page. There was no mission statement that I had a problem with.
I'm still here in part because I don't think it will always be this way. That I will outlast it.
I still hope that the OTO can be what I liked about it. The place where I first tasted liberty. And the place that gave you the chance you needed too.
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I don't think it's "considerably large." Consider the fact that the entirety of its international membership would not fill 5% of the Giants stadium.
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2) Thelema wasn't born out of sterility. Thelema draws on Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Tantra, Buddhism, Taoismand other influences. It isn't a huge surprise that many would find it within their will to identify themself as a syncretic melding of Thelema and something else. I can't see why that would bother anyone nor can I see how that would inherently make one a less dedicated Thelemite.
3) Not everyone views Thelema as a religion. For some, it's a philosophy.
4) Every man and woman of full age (18 or more years old), free, and of good report, has an indefeasible right to the first three degrees of O.T.O.
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Perhaps. However, it has been my experience that most people involved in religion will argue about the "policy" of a religion, while accepting the spritual aspects of the religion in agreement. That is to say, most Thelemites will argue how a Rite is to be performed, while most are in agreement about the need for a person to find her True Will.
I would also suggest that for most Thelemites, arguing the policy, is a process that will lead to acceptance and further understanding, so long as our current leaders are willing to engage in a meaningful interaction with the membership. It may not be a negative thing at all. Think of it as an opportunity to educate, rather than a debate to be won.
Cheers!
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Perhaps. However, if every initiate of the I* possessed the minimal traits I described above, our arguments would probably be much more productive, and the subjects probably would be much more edifying.
I mean, right now the subjects of our arguments are pretty shameful. Why should there be a question as to whether our material and organizational futures are important enough to make some reasonable but serious demands on the membership in terms of contribution and quality? The fact that there still is a question reflects very poorly on all of us.
Someday, I hope our arguments end up being about what to do with all the wealth and talent that we have accumulated, instead of whether wealth and talent are necessary.
Reply
Do you think you should have been accepted into the OTO as you were when you first began? Would you let in 'another you?'
I tend to think that the OTO is for the formation of people, not for the acceptance of the already perfect. I hope we look for potential.
For me, Thelema is about the liberation of ourselves and the world. Nothing in my initiations have made me think differently. Nothing in my initiations have made me think that I had to do things the same way as anyone else.
The OTO has provided me with sustenance and in return, I hope I've given something back. The EGC has not really resonated with me. The ritual hasn't given me what it promised. As a Scientific Illuminist, I just can't get down with that.
So what does a Thelemite like me do when someone says I'm not good enough to be in the OTO?
Reply
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The OTO as it is now isn't something I would have joined, I think. But I have the benefit/curse of nostalgia and I have seen the OTO change around me. When I joined it, we seemed to be on the same page. There was no mission statement that I had a problem with.
I'm still here in part because I don't think it will always be this way. That I will outlast it.
I still hope that the OTO can be what I liked about it. The place where I first tasted liberty. And the place that gave you the chance you needed too.
I'll quit when I've decided that that isn't so.
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