Death Takes a Holiday

[impulsiveanswer]

Just a list of things I've been thinking about since the new episode last night that I need to get out of my head before family obligations take me away from internet access for the weekend.  You are now officially warned for spoilers:

Comments

[sleepyjeans]

Hi! I don't know you, but I read this anyway, and I want to say I completely agree about Dean and Sam and their relationship and the Siren's effect etc. I honestly assumed they would sweep it under the rug and not bring it up again, but the fact that Dean DID bring it up says that Dean is definitely not over it. And I agree that it was cruel (protecting himself or not), and it was just bringing it up to pick a fight (because perhaps Dean realizes the only time they actually talk things out is when they scream at each other, that's just one thought

[impulsiveanswer]

I'm a bit of a rambler myself

[sleepyjeans]

I think that Sam is definitely angry at Dean for it, but I don't think he's yet recognized that he's angry at Dean for it. I think that he was still going through those stages of grief that we hear so much about when Dean came back, so he kind of got halted on completing that cycle.

I completely agree that Sam isn't intentionally patronizing his brother, I don't think either of them know how to relate to each other anymore. But I think that the role reversal is epic to watch.

[impulsiveanswer]

Yeah, recognizing that anger (and the guilt that goes along with it) definitely takes more emotional health than either boy has at the moment.

The role reversal is pretty epic. Hopefully this whole painful thing will lead to a place where they can both help each other and accept help from one another.

[novembersmith]

Hey! Found my way here through spn_heavy meta, and couldn't help jumping in re:#1. I feel like most of the things Dean said under the siren's influence were just a more explicit version of what he's been telling Sam all along--that he wasn't comfortable with Sam using his powers, that he's fucked up over going to hell and feels like Sam doesn't care about it, and yeah, some of the stuff he said was hurtful, but not really anything new, per se. Sam, though--I feel like Sam's secret was more painful, maybe, because it WAS a secret, something he'd obviously been thinking for a while and hiding

[impulsiveanswer]

If Dean's hurtful words were just a more explicit (and meaner) way of telling Sam he's uncomfortable with and worried about Sam's powers, Sam's words were a more explicit and meaner way of telling Dean that he's not making an effort to do any healing from his traumatic experiences in Hell - Dean drinks, Dean wallows in his guilt, Dean passes judgment on Sam, Dean throws himself into hunting when things get too close emotionally, but Dean isn't trying to get over it. I'll never say he should just let Hell roll off his back, but behavior like this does get in the way of his ability to hunt properly

[mediumajaxwench]

Here via spn_heavymeta

[impulsiveanswer]

I'm worried about Sam's powers and motivations these days too, but I choose to believe he's stopped arguing with Dean about it and he's only doing it when Dean's not looking because he doesn't want to have that argument with Dean anymore and he doesn't want Dean to look at him like he did at the end of It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester again.

Pamela was such a fun character (and, as a Samgirl, a woman after my own heart). It's good for the boys to remember that just because their cause is just doesn't mean the innocent bystanders think it's their duty to stand between the Winchesters and the bad guys.

[ginzai]

Dean also said and did some pretty hurtful things under the influence of the siren (not to mention he was the one who brought the siren back to the hotel room in the first place when he went there to kill Sam), but Sam's the only one making the effort to apologize.

Just wanted to touch on this briefly as well. I don't see what Dean said under the siren's influence as anything needing an apology (what he did is perhaps another issue), but one is perhaps deserved for his remark about sleeping with monsters.

In Dean's defense, however, Sam's remarks to Dean were far, far more hurtful than anything Dean said to Sam (including the line about monsters, imho), and while Sam has apologizes, the episode brings it up repeatedly that Dean can tell when Sam is lying - and Dean seems to think that Sam's apologies are anything but sincere. Sam, furthermore, is the one still twisting the knife; while Dean might be making snide references, Sam is the one still actively lying and holding back, and treating Dean like an idiot in the process -

[impulsiveanswer]

None of it has worked and it's become starkly apparent that Dean's influence on Sam is practically nil.Talking to Sam worked in 4.09, when he told Sam he wasn't trying to pick a fight but to understand; Sam confided in him then. Just because it didn't magically fix everything the first time doesn't mean that Dean's only line of defense is to go all snarky, judgmental, and passive-aggressive, especially when it's this behavior that makes Sam more defensive

[ginzai]

Dean's only line of defense is to go all snarky, judgmental, and passive-aggressive

Oh, I totally agree, hence the huge list of things Dean attempted before this point in the earlier comment. 4x09 is not his first try at reconciliation, nor was it the last. It's true that Dean's behavior is making Sam more defensive, but is that really a bad thing? This method is at the very least spurring a reaction of some sort.

I do wish they would talk more openly and I loved that Sam opened up a touch in 4x09. I think the fact that he did coupled with Dean's talk with Anna was what gave him the strength to tell Sam some of the details about Hell in 4x10. They've got so much they need to go over and that neither of them seems to fully trust the other is just heartbreaking.

Sam's fear from the very beginning of learning about his powers was that Dean would look at him differentlyDean doesn't consider Sam less than human, but I'll admit that he's freaking out about Sam's powers and their implications. I'll even admit that Dean seems to be

[impulsiveanswer]

However, that said, it doesn't excuse Sam's lying about them, which started the same day he got Dean back from the dead and with a crack about Dean's "dying wish" even.

I'm not saying Sam is excused from lying or that Dean would think any less of him if he knew the truth, just that Sam's lies are coming from a place of insecurity and not malicious even if they are destructive. As for him lying the same day Dean got back, we have to remember that Sam didn't expect to be reunited with his formerly dead brother, let alone have to answer his questions about what he'd been up to in the past four months. His response kind of reminded me of a kid who tells his mother "nothing" after his mother asks what he's up to (when he's done something questionable) or how his day was (when it was particularly upsetting) - he didn't know quite how to respond so he avoided it. Again, not healthy or helpful but understandable.

Dean has never treated Sam like a sidekick but he has treated him as a younger sibling. Sidekick implies that he was calling

[yourlibrarian]

Regarding the apology issue, I think the problem shown (in the episode as a whole) is that Dean suspects Sam doesn't mean those apologies. For one thing, Sam is still keeping secrets, and insulting Dean's intelligence with his continuing dishonesty. One thing's for sure, having their issues out in the open hasn't done anything towards actually resolving them. Until then, any apologies either one of them makes is going to ring hollow.

Very nice point about Sam acting out of instinct rather than intent with Pamela's demon. I'd assume that Pamela picked up on the rage behind it, but giving in to instinct like that is indeed going to be very dangerous.

so many people have died in the name of the Winchesters and it's good that the boys are reminded that not everyone is willing to do so.

Yes, it was a nice contrast to the way she shrugged off the blindness, which had been, to some degree, her own doing rather than theirs.

the grown-up, ghostly version of "Dad! He's touching me!"

LOL! Good analogy.

[impulsiveanswer]

I think Sam's still keeping secrets even when it's obvious he's lying because, at least in part, he doesn't trust Dean anymore to listen objectively; I believe he thinks Dean will instantly condemn what he's doing without even considering there might be some merit to what he's doing or seeing the reasons why Sam's making the decisions he is. I agree that until they actually try to resolve their issues neither of them is going to believe an apology from the other.

I like how you compared Pamela's reaction to losing her eyes to her dying - she did make it perfectly clear she wanted nothing to do with their fight after she found out what it cost her. At least someone on the show learned their lesson the first time!