Gender roles

[sour_idealist]

Now, this is... a bit of a tricky topic, so let me preface it by saying that I absolutely love the movie, okay?  But it does rely on some pretty strict gender roles in a lot of ways.

For a start: Well. Let's look at a theoretical woman. You realize that in her dreams, she's being stalked by someone who appears to be her husband. Her mental

Comments

[fae_boleyn]

A lot of what I've seen in the comments talks about Ariadne's characterization/role in the plot. I'm not a Nolan expert, I've seen... Actually, Inception might be the only film of his I've seen. But she reminded me, from day one, of the companions in Doctor Who. Like them, she's the audience avatar. So I guess I just took it at face value, because it's a trope I'm rather familiar with. I'm used to the limitations of the role, and also in Doctor Who, especially with the Tenth Doctor if you're familiar with the canon, companions also sort of were a Jiminy Cricket at times. Ariadne's poking into Cobb's past and wanting to help him get rid of Mal is similar to that, in my mind. I'm not saying Nolan stole the idea, but it's also not unique to him. (The majority of companions are also female

[lobelia321]

I like the Dr Who analogy a lot. That certainly resonates!

[gen_is_gone]

Re:Maybe Ariadne grew up with... I don't know, four older brothers and is used to being around all the guys. We can't know because the characters are so undefined.

I don't know if this is just my OCD head!canon going into overdrive, but I assumed she grew up around men (two older brothers and four uncles, in my head). She doesn't seem to have much of a relationship with Saito or Eames or Yusuf, but she (from what little we see of the prep scenes) seems relatively comfortable. I don't know how I'd feel being the youngest and only female in a group/team of adult men, but I was the youngest and only girl on my fencing team for years until the older kids started graduating and new crop came in. Obviously it isn't the best comparison to make, if just because pre-adolescence through late teens makes for a completely different dynamic, but I never awkward or weird.

And on an unrelated note, I know what you mean. Most of my friends tower over me. ;)

[lobelia321]

I'm not sure I'm getting your question about Cobb and Mal although I've read it twice now? Is your hypothetical woman reversing the gender roles of C/M? Or describing the film as is? Or something else? Sorry *is dense

[sour_idealist]

If Mal were a man and Cobb were a woman, what would you assume about their relationship?

I completely love Ariadne's character, particularly her pretty-but-nonsexual costumes and the fact that she wasn't a love interest; I'm very sorry if it came off as otherwise. And it could definitely be a positive thing that no one mentioned her gender; certainly it's entirely possible that she wouldn't think about it either.

I would be a RIDICULOUS point woman/forgeress shipper, I admit that up front. And on the one hand, I think it's entirely possible it would still build up a fandom, but on the other hand, femmeslash pairings almost never explode the same way slash pairings do. Compare the Inception and Black Swan fandoms, for example; they're both very dark, cinematographically excellent movies, and Black Swan had way more to bait the femmeslashers than Inception had to bait the femmeslashers. But Inception had gone through seven or so kink meme posts two months after its release, while Black Swan seems to have been out a comparable amount

[fae_boleyn]

I think I'd have fun with the A/E dynamic as slash, femslash, or het if you only genderbent one of them. A/E is really the first slash pairing I actively shipped (Inception is responsible for all slash pairings I actively ship, actually...)

I agree that A/E probably wouldn't be quite as huge if they were both female, though if girl!Arthur was played by Summer Glau, all her fans from her other work might follow. However, I'd say they definitely have a strong following; I lurk in the Devil Wears Prada fandom, and the Andy/Miranda pairing is huge. It's the primary ship from that fandom, as far as I can tell.

[sour_idealist]

There's definitely a lot of fun to be had there. I think I'd ship them a lot more as ladies, but then a really well-done action thriller with an attached lesbian romance is... basically my absolute perfect movie. (Why yes, I loved Black Swan, why do you ask?)

And that is an excellent point about the Summer Glau fandom showing up and shipping away, too; I hadn't even thought to factor that in.

(Also, holy shit - Joseph Gordon-Levitt had a sizable fanbase prior to this movie, right? And I think Tom Hardy was sort of known; also, both of them have played gay characters in the past, so the slashers from the RockNRolla and Mysterious Skin fandoms were already familiar with them, attracted to them, and probably ready to start slashing when they started watching Inception. Add "darling" and "Go to sleep, Mr. Eames," to that and no wonder this pairing took off to this degree! Somehow I never thought of that being a factor, but I really suspect it was.)

[lion]

My biggest problem with Mal is that she's not a real female character - she has no voice independent of Cobb's retelling. Sure, the movie is shot through Cobb's eyes which makes everyone subject to his prejudices, but Mal is literally created through him. I find that even more disturbing than the question of gender roles.

As for Saito - women are more likely to feel fear when confronted by a male stranger than vice versa. This is largely because women are statistically at far greater risk of assault from strangers than men are. Saito's reaction as a powerful male didn't feel wrong to me, though what it is based on (male privilege) absolutely is.

[lezzerlee]

I think your problem with Mal is actually quite effective for the film. We really only see her as her projection. Which I feel is necessary. It drives the idea home.

Why would she have an independent voice? She's dead. And it isn't a retelling of her life. It's a telling of Cobb's life as it is right now.

[lion]

It bothers me, I guess, when people then analyse her character as if she's actually a living person. Presenting a character without an independent voice is hardly new, but I think the presentation of Mal as the scorned woman is difficult to pull off if she's not actually allowed to voice it herself.

In telling his present, Cobb has to retell what's probably the most significant part of her past - and he does this as a guilty party. I find that disturbing (just as I find Jane Eyre disturbing, for example).

I don't know, if Mal was generally acknowledged to be just a projection I'd be better with it but as she's usually assessed for her character, I find her lack of independent voice uncomfortable.

[fae_boleyn]

It's hard to look at Mal as just a projection, I guess, when she is so obviously... independent, in some ways, of Cobb. By that, I mean she's clearly part of him (his need to be punished for what he did to the real Mal, and his inability to live without her), but she's also separate in a strange way. She does things he would never want her to do, sabotaging what is, to him, his most important job ever, the one that gets him home

[white_aster]

I very much agree that the gender issues are there. I hadn't thought about the Cobb/Mal and Eames/Saito ones you brought up, but it's true: those scenes do rely on some gender-induced assumptions to be funny and not creepy.

I mostly was a bit disappointed in Inception because of who were the women and who the men: there was no female character whose entire characterization was not bound up in the main male lead. Especially considering that all the side characters could have been made female and it not changed more than pronouns in the script, I thought that having Eames or Arthur or Saito be female would have been kickass. Yes, I'm sure that the way it was played could have really changed the character, but...it wouldn't have to.

[fae_boleyn]

I think some of having it be a bit of a boys' club is also typical of heist movies - Ocean's Eleven, for one well-known example. TV shows like Leverage, which I don't watch so I'm guessing based off commercials, seem to subvert this by having female characters as experts on the team, but it's a rather typical scenario.

I would have liked to see one of the main team be female too. Honestly, I'd have loved for it to have been Saito. I mean, he mostly owned Cobb and Arthur in the beginning, so having a Ms. Saito would have just made that fabulous. (Is it bad that I'm picturing a different cast member from Memoirs of a Geisha as female!Saito? Because I can just see Gong Li playing her.) As someone above said, she would have come off as a cutthroat bitch, but that can actually be interesting to watch.

[white_aster]

As someone above said, she would have come off as a cutthroat bitch, but that can actually be interesting to watch.

I don't think it would have to play like that. COULD the actress, from the pauses and raised eyebrows and the way she holds herself and the tone of voice she uses, turn Saito into a bitch or Arthur into an ice queen? Yes. Easily, probably, because those are stereotypes that people LOOK for and expect. Did it have to be played that way? I don't think so. Women can be capable and high-powered and all that without falling into those stereotypes...it's just a matter of actually portraying the CHARACTER first and the gender SECOND, rather than the other way around. And I would have loved to have a woman play one of the professional roles and have her sex/gender play absolutely no role, just because that is so RARE in media these days.

[fae_boleyn]

Oh, I definitely agree that it's a stereotype, my point was simply that it doesn't have to be a negative to play a female character that way if it works. Because let's be honest, some women are that way. Men too, but it's more expected of them.

I mean, Saito is rather cutthroat, so a female version likely would be too. The trick would be making that not the focus of the character in a detrimental way.

[elentiriel]

Like the poster above, I have a problem how there's no real female lead - Mal is just a memory, and Ariadne is supporting cast.

But on the topic of Ariadne being the only girl - in fairly male-dominated fields you just kind of get used to it. As far as I know architecture isn't really biased towards either gender (correct me if I'm wrong) in workplaces, and I'm guessing that perhaps in Ariadne's classes she would have to work with a variety of groups on projects that could be even male:female ratios or skewed. Though from personal experience in being the sciences & engineering field as a female, you kind of get used to having more males as co-workers after a while. As long as you can hold your own intellectually with them and not take every negative comment they say about females personally, they'll respect you as an equal co-worker.