The heart of the matter...

[irenicspace]

In a recent post, ash93 suggested the creation of a position or committee within the OTO that would “hear, review, and make recommendations on grievances from members” of the MOE. ash93 states that the MOE members, when coming in conflict with those of the lovers or hermit triad often get the short end of the stick or the case gets whitewashed. ash93's solution

Comments

[magdalena_lvx]

While I heartily agree that consistency in demonstration of honesty and integrity and the principles of jurisprudence espoused by the Order can always be improved, please remember that individuals also come to the Order with their own sets of expectations. Sometimes they even bring with them expectations that fly in the face of what the Order openly stands for. In these cases the Order and it's representatives can function with consistency, integrity and honesty, be executing the will of the Order in their decisions, be in full accordance with the laws and rules of OTO jurisprudence, and still find themselves in the position of being viewed in all manner of negative light. There is no way to fight or argue against this stance since it comes from a refusal to accept or even see what perhaps was never acceptable to the individual, but was ignored in favor of the "comfort" "coolness" or "choose and adjective" that the individual experienced in joining a magical, fraternal, esoteric Order.

[irenicspace]

If members coming to the OTO have incorrect expectations, who responsibility is it to set them correctly

Conflict of values

[azael93]

If we see people who are not acting based on fundamental principles, whose responsibility is it to inform them?

Excellent question! I resist Ash's idea for more reasons than just 194 or the fact that it simply adds red tape to muddy waters (to mix metaphors). I resist it as a reflection of my fundamental value that the Authority in the Order manifests from the top down. It's bad magick to give IIIrd degrees the ability to call IXth degrees on the carpet

Re: Conflict of values

[irenicspace]

"If we had a clear barometer of informing principles from the leadership I don't think these sorts of discussions would occupy so much of our time."

I could not agree more with the above!

Also a note to Sashatra's & Buringblue's situations...I know next to NOTHING about them. All I know is that there is a conflict, there are two sides to each, one is leaving the OTO in each situation. The members both feel they have been wronged, the OTO cannot/will not present its side and so people like you only see the one-sided claims and the local bodies/grand lodge in this case have no way of clarifying the situation or clearing up the allegations made about it to the membership in general. Now who does this serve in the end? No one! The OTO looks bad; the persons become resentful, bad mouth the OTO and fuel people like Koenig. Overall a lose/lose situation

[isomeme]

Very intriguing post. If you were appointed OHO tomorrow, what would be your first priorities for specific changes in Order policy, personnel, communications, or other practical concerns to bring about the restoration of trust?

Nice try...

[irenicspace]

We have to first recognize that I am not privy to all that is, has, or will be done in the OTO. I am not a hermit nor even at the top of the lover’s triad. I don't know what is going on now so it would be silly for me to say "if I were the OHO

Re: Nice try...

[isomeme]

First, I don't consider it unfair to ask what you would do if you were the OHO (or, for that matter, any other officer of the OTO). After all, you are making fairly serious and specific critiques of the performance of these officers, which implies that you have a mental model for what better performance would look like. I'm merely asking you to share that model

Good post

[azael93]

Sometimes I have a hard time drawing some of the lines in the sand even in my own private judgements. As an example: I've seen emails from a IXth degree telling a Lover member that he could not attend local body -- not even officered by the IXth in question -- functions until he had a job and his own apartment (he and his wife were living in someone else's home at the time

Re: Good post

[irenicspace]

Principles are not that hard if they are clearly defined and understood. I am very well aware of the situation you speak of about the 9th. My reply goes back to principle and expectation set in minerval. The bother and sister in question were well within their POWER to do their WILL and it was none of the higher-up’s business what they did outside of the OTO. If the OTO sets the expectation that it neither knows nor cares what a person does outside of the OTO, like use drugs or have a variety of sexual combinations or partners, then what business is it of the higher-up where a pair lived? Consistency and clarity are the keys. Perhaps the higher-up should have counseled them on how it made more sense to get their malkuth in shape before expending a lot of energy on the OTO or their local body. That is fine; but to forbid attendance? not within the higher-ups power nor the OTO’s business. And I’ll be happy to tell the higher-up directly, I have told him similar things before. And the fact that the OTO let this person get away with this

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not

[irenicspace]

If this is the best that USGL can do? Then it is not good enough. I appreicate that some try, but the results matter when there is a lack of trust. The results, not the effort, matter when a person feels that have no one to turn to and resigns. The results matter when another person oversteps their position and no one calls them on it. The effort is appreciated, but the results matter.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not

[irenicspace]

"Do you think that the mediation could be done by the Committee of Four?"

I do not see why not. I don't have any significant disagreements with how the process works; I have a problem with the lack of commitment to the principles and the consistent "disappearing" of GT results.

"But then again, it all comes back down to whether or not those persons have virtue. It has to start with integrity, virtue and honor."

Yes it does, and that comes from the top. If a general lacks virtue, his men will lack virtue all the way down to the lowest private. If the general is inconsistent, and will not stand behind his decisions and take responsibility for his actions, the men will lose respect for him. It all starts on the top. Respect, virtue, honor, integrity, trust all take a life time to earn, cultivate and develop, but only a moment to lose.

[amritamani]

Great post
thanks for this