(Untitled)

[isilienelenihin]

Somewhere I've written down all the problems I have with River Song's character.  But apparently I didn't do it on the internet, where it would actually be useful.  This post is to remedy that oversight.  I've tried to be as concise and clear as I can, and if you disagree by all means let me know and we'll talk.  I always enjoy a good debate.

Comments

[isilienelenihin]

Eh, I do love Alex Kingston and I really want to ship Doctor/River because it's CANON--but I can't. And I loved her in Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead. She had so much potential and then they just wasted it. :-/

I think the name thing will happen when the 11th Doctor regenerates. I'm pretty sure that River is going to ask him 'Doctor Who?' at the fields of Trenzalore, on the day that no one can be silent or tell a lie.

Personally I like the whole 'telling the true name when married' bit because I think it's sort of symbolic--there's a power in names, and giving someone else power over you is sort of what loving someone is all about.

[develish1]

tsk, shame on you both, he told her his name in the wedding that never happened since the timeline was wiped out afterwards. Remember where he whispered in her ear?

it's okay though, the plots are so damn twisted half the time none of us know what the heck is going on, lol

[isilienelenihin]

But he DIDN'T tell her his name. He said 'look in my ear.' He told Amy and Rory that he told River his name because he wanted to keep the fact that he's secretly alive, well, a secret. :D

[fogsblue]

I don't have anything particularly useful to add. I certainly agree with all you've said about autonomy. River is less a character and more a plot device agreed. And not even an enjoyable one. She is dragged into the Doctor's life to push it in certain directions before she's ignorede again til her character could be useful again

[isilienelenihin]

There's so much that happens off screen. The 'Night and the Doctor' videos seem to hint that when Amy and Rory are sleeping the Doctor calls up River and they have extra adventures, but we never get to SEE their relationship happen like we did the Doctor and Rose.

And his relationship with Rose was just--more honest. Even if they never admitted it aloud I think both participants were aware both of their own feelings, and that the feelings were returned. I just don't get that with River and the Doctor.

[fogsblue]

Exactly! We're told (in a roundabout way) that they might spend some time together, but we're never actually shown any decent real buildup.

It's that whole TELL vs SEE, we're told they're married/in love but we're never shown anything that indictates it. With Rose and the Doctor, we saw it happening, by Doomsday, Rose saying 'I love you' was her just putting into words what was already visible...

I'm waiting to see if there's ever that moment that shows the Doctor loves River, not just cares or feels thankful or compassionate for, but actually loves her.

[isilienelenihin]

There is so much telling in Moffat's treatment of River Song. Really she could use her own spin-off show since she isn't going to travel with the Doctor full time (although I would want RTD to write for it and not Moffat because I think RTD has a better grasp of how to make a well rounded, three dimensional character than Moffat does).

Of course Rose knew. It still needs to be said, Doctor you idjit, but she knew. They both knew, and WE knew that they loved each other even if they never said it. I see a lot of flirting with River and the Doctor, but not that much deeper emotion. :-/

Name Issues

[ext_1424676]

I completely agree with everything you said. Personally, I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the Doctor/River relationship ever since she used the Doctor’s name to gain his trust in SitL - especially when we learn the only way he can tell her is to marry her

Re: Name Issues

[isilienelenihin]

The 'when one loves an ageless god' comment really irked me, right along with the 'one psychopath per TARDIS' comment. One of the things that I've always believed about Rose was that she saw the Doctor not JUST as the Doctor, the Time Lord, but the Doctor, the man. River grew up on Amy's stories about the Doctor and we all saw what happened when Amy realized that the Doctor can't always save everyone (then what are you good for-'-Amy's Choice,' and the Doctor's little monologue in 'The God Complex' when he told her that he led her to her death) and that he's not the perfect man she imagined when she was a child. I like that we saw River being a bit bitter--but if she's his wife and she's been with him, doesn't she see the man

Re: Name Issues

[fogsblue]

(in which the actual wedding takes up maybe 10 minutes and consists mostly of the Doctor yelling at River to let him touch her so time and the multiverse won't DIE)

Just gotta say, I've always felt that the only reason he married her was because she wouldn't do what was needed otherwise. I think it was a case of River literally holding reality to ransom, and her price was marrying the Doctor.

I still don't get why. And that whole pile of crap about how she loves him the most drives me nuts.

Re: Name Issues

[isilienelenihin]

I get that River is YOUNG in 'The Wedding of River Song.' I get that she's acting selfish and immature because, well, she is and people act like that occasionally, so I can forgive the 'no one loves you more than me' bit.

I can't forgive the way she's ready to endanger all of reality EVER in order to make that point. Because Moffat's whole problem with Rose is that she was clingy and whiny, right? HOW IS THIS NOT CLINGY AND WHINY? I just--Moffat is not my favorite person. Not by a long shot. And she really did coerce him and every wedding I've ever been in (well, one--my own) definitely has a bit in the contract about it being invalidated if coercion is involved.

There is no free will in their relationship, there just isn't.

[annissag]

I don't buy their romance. I can't. There are too many red flags and too many things that just don't feel right. Thing is, I want the Doctor to love. Doctor/Rose may be my ship, but even with Rose gone from the show, I want that romantic aspect of the show to continue. If the Doctor were real, I would want him to move on. I don't necessarily want his future relationships to be the same, or with the same sort of person, but I do want something that doesn't appear abusive, and River/Doctor just hits too close to that for me.

That said, I find I have a hell of a good time when River's on screen. It's only when I look closer that I start having issues with her character. Which is a shame, because I used to love to do meta on this show and when I do it now, I can't enjoy it.

Edited because leaving out a negative changes the whole meaning of a sentence!

[isilienelenihin]

I would enjoy her character SO MUCH MORE if she actually was as strong as Moffat wants us to believe she is. Little lines, like 'one psychopath per TARDIS' when you could have something asserting her independence and reminding the Doctor that she has her own life ruin it for me--because yes, they're throw-away lines, but they say so much about her character.

Maybe I just can't turn my Lit brain off, but it seriously bothers me. I want to like River. I want to admire her because she's overcome so many obstacles and finally has her own life--except that she doesn't. :-/ She's still in a subservient role, still being controlled, but this time it's the man she 'loves' who has the wheel.

[serenityalpha]

After reading your post I happened to come across this on Facebook and quite honestly I thought not only would you enjoy it but quite possibly agree with some of it.

[isilienelenihin]

Joss Whedon could give Moffat a few pointers whilst they're having those beers. XP

That's quite funny, actually, and if I didn't have so many problems with him I'd definitely agree.