To: my friend who supported Prop 8 but won't actually allow others to talk with her about it

[jan_andrea]

Honey, I'm sorry you're feeling persecuted. I really am. I think hatred or vitriol towards any individuals involved in the situation is wrong

Comments

[redemptionsongs]

I am not who you are referring to and I generally keep quiet on these things, but I do understand where she is coming from, just as I understand your position. I did not vote for 8, but I did vote for 102 here in Arizona. I did not vote that way out of hate or bigotry, I voted that way because marriage between a man and a woman is an important part of my faith and like it or not, my faith and the way I operate on a daily basis and vote are intertwined. FWIW, I would not have an issue with voting for an initiative that made *all* unions done by the state civil unions with the benefits of traditional marriage and left marriage entirely up to religious institutions, but that is not what I was asked to vote on and I do not feel bad for using my right as a voter to vote the way I felt was right

[jan_andrea]

I am sad to hear that you voted to deny same-sex couples the same legal rights that heterosexual couples have. In all honesty, I think that doing so based on the word that's used is pretty lame. Right now, we don't have an alternative to marriage that makes all unions the same, legally; it's marriage or nothing (since in most places, civil unions are the separate-but-unequal choice). I think it's dishonest to claim that the word alone was the clincher. Separate but equal is never equal

[redemptionsongs]

I understand your position and I respect it. I know that nothing I say will change your mind, just as nothing you can say would change my mind. Our beliefs are a part of us, I know that it is probably impossible to see things from my POV because it is so different and I can honestly say that it would be impossible for me to see things from an atheist POV (not trying to say that your POV is uniquely atheist in this instance). I understand that,I accept it, I am at peace with that. This isn't something that I've wanted to debate with anyone, but you asked in your post if she would own up to her vote and I am owning up to mine with no shame.

[jan_andrea]

Well, you've put me in a quandry. I respect that you will at least own up to your vote, but I completely disagree with it and it's one of the things that I just can't abide -- taking civil rights from groups just because they're a minority

[brunahildm]

Did you see Keith Olbermann's piece on Prop 8 (etc)? It's quite eloquent and I totally don't understand how anyone can want to take rights away from people and NOT consider themselves bigoted. Really glad that ACLU is challenging the validity of voting on it as amendment when it is of such magnitude.

Here's the Olbermann piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

[jan_andrea]

I don't get it, either.

I consider myself fairly tolerant, at least in practice, to people's religious beliefs. I mean, I have friends on this journal who are Jewish, Catholic, Pagan, and various Protestant denominations. Mostly we get along fine... because they're not trying to make me live the way they live. Once someone crosses that line -- "My god says we have to X, so you have to X, too" -- I lose that tolerance. Do whatever your religion says, as long as it doesn't impact other people's rights. That's the American way!

Yah, I saw the Olbermann piece. He's excellent :)

[rock_grrl]

As a Canadian, I am appalled that your state even had a vote on allowing or disallowing people's civil rights to be taken away. Civil rights for a minority group should not be decided by the majourity simply because state or federal governments are too chicken shit to take a stand for their citizens' rights. Shame on them!

If it helps at all, legally all states must recognise marriages that take place in Canada (as far as I am aware) and in Canada (ALL of Canada), gay/lesbian people can marry.

Here is a shout out of 'FUCK YOU' to all of those who voted to take away a person's civil rights! If you're SO against same-sex marriages, then don't marry someone of the same sex. Simple as pie.

[jan_andrea]

I Love your icon -- that's a riot!

Lucky for me, I don't live in California; I'm on the opposite coast in New Hampshire. But I am just as appalled that a ballot measure is allowed to amend the state's constitution (that's not the case in NH) and that it was applied to remove rights :( It's really a sad case. Imagine if that had been the case during the civil rights era! Constitutionally-"protected" whites-only drinking fountains? You betcha!

I miss Canada...

[rock_grrl]

Thanks! ;-) It's one of my favourites

[artemis_rich]

Icon love!

[tahoebean]

I fucking love you, Jan. ;)

[jan_andrea]

Likewise, Bean! :D

[justsurvive]

can i just clear one thing up? its not the church that donated whatever amount of money for ads and whatnot. it was the people in the church. very different.

[jan_andrea]

I don't know; I hear people going on all the time about how the people *are* the church. If higher-ups encouraged "the people" to donate, then to me, it boils down to the same thing. Maybe even worse, from a social perspective.

[justsurvive]

the higher ups didnt even encourage voting one way or the other. they just reminded of the doctorine that marriage should be between a man and a woman, they never said "VOTE NO" or "vote yes". but some members took it that way and it all spiraled out of control. the church would never donate money to politics. the weathier members might of. but its not the church that told them to do so. especially not the prophet. in washington(where i live) we got the same exact message that the californians did. it just happens that some members took it upon themselves (im quoting that friend i mentioned in my anti prop 8 entry)"fight for religious freedom and traditional marriage".
i hope you know me enough by now that i am for gay marriage. im personally ashamed on how californians reacted to it all. im ashamed that the californian mormons reacted that wAy because now all mormons are getting a bad rap. this is why churches should stick out of politics. it just leaves a bad image when its all over

[mercy_rain]

Oh, please. "We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman." - HOW is that not a clear and overt request from the First Presidency to vote a certain way?